This is a huge subject but one that is of extreme interest to me more than most other topics - because this is where the rubber hits the road, - in a word the Parousia. The one most important of all events in the universe - when we receive collectively our new bodies, a spiritual body in Christ's presence. I do feel that we are close (a nebulous term indeed), but humanity for the first time in history is capable of destroying life from off this planet in a variety of ways. This is a time that we must watch for these events to come to fruition. We live in a period of condensed history - events move very rapidly now. Velocity and increased activity is key to understanding this present time - such as indicated by Daniel 12:4 - "But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great." It is time to prepare for the worst and the best of times - because in the resurrection we will be exposed to all the wonders of creation and His plan plus we will be doing it in a powerful spiritual body under the mentorship of Christ and God! I would like the privilege to discuss what I think about such a complex subject. And asking the question, do we have current indicators that would lead us to believe that such "End Times" are near?

Consider that many in the US and Iran seek religious salvation through a Middle Eastern blowout. “End times” Christian fundamentalists believe a cataclysmic Armageddon will enable the Messiah to reappear and transport them to heaven, leaving behind Muslims and other non-believers to face plagues and violent death. Iran’s new Shia Islam president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, subscribes to a competing version of the messianic comeback, whereby the skies turn to flames and blood flows in a final showdown of good and evil. The Hidden Imam returns, bringing world peace by establishing Islam as the global religion.

I would like to lay out what I see in our future history that is embedded in Revelation Chapter Twenty. This chapter is a synopsis of events that occur after Christ's "Second" Presence. I believe that the Millennium will be a trainning period for the Chosen. And when you look at verse five, when ALL the rest of mankind were brought back, they all came back from the dead! In other words, ALL THE REST WERE DEAD! As it reads here the REST WERE DEAD! No live group coming over from the Millenium to join in with those brought back from the dead, either. All those that were brought back were dead. There are only TWO resurrections to spiritual life - 1) At the second coming of Christ and - 2)At the end of the GWT Period!

REVELATION CHAPTER 20

This theme concerning the thousand years in the book of revelation leaves me with some important clues. I, IMO, think there are certain dynamics that are in motion and always must be respected. There are the physical and spiritual substances interacting with what IS, WAS, and WILL BE in time. I believe there are limits that produce the derivatives responsible for shaping God's exact plan. The thousand year period is no doubt part of God's divine purpose for mankind. I would like to discuss with you what I see being talked about in these texts, of Revelation chapter 20 with regard to this most interesting and real dispensational epoch. The "THOUSAND YEARS" period has always been considered by me to be a very fascinating time. A interval between the Parousia and the GWT that will really jump start in a material way the salvation of man. So I would like to examine these texts in chapter 20, where the thousand years is specifically mentioned. We notice that this chapter is the sole domain of this term - and that it appears in six successive verses from two on to seven. It has struck me as a very revealing group of verses regarding what's ahead for mankind, when looked at closely. I believe that events leading up to the Millennium or Parousia will evolve the destruction of all life from this planet. Matt 24: 22 - for the elect sake these days will be shortened. Because God intends to save the flesh of the elect until the resurrection. As Noah and his family was saved by entering into the boat, then all life perished on the planet. This will be repeated from a confluence of sources - such as war, environment, economic, famines similiar to a perfect storm of events. We will be resurrected just prior to all life being destroyed. All those who ever lived or died will be brought all back during the Great White Throne period Rev 20:11 - and receive their salvation then - "UR"

Revelation Chapter 20: verses 2~7 and the Time Line of Events concerning the Millennium and the GWT periods:

Verse1) "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand." This occurs at the beginning of the Millennium. This angel has the authority and power given to him by God to carry out this task. The fact that he has the key of that underworld is designed to denote here, that he can fasten it on Satan so that it shall become his prison.

Verse 2) - "He chained the dragon for a thousand years. It is that old snake, who is also known as the devil and Satan." This verse announces that Satan is to be restrained for a thousand years at the initial stage of the "Millennium".

Verse 3) - "Then the angel threw the dragon into the pit. He locked and sealed it, so that a thousand years would go by before the dragon could fool the nations again. But after that, it would have to be set free for a little while." This verse declares that Satan would be locked and sealed away (restrained) for a period of a thousand years before he could deceive the nations again. But then he would be free after that - to deceive the nations. So this would be a period of time that he is not deceiving people - and it would be the first time in human history since Adam&Eve. Why is that - it could be that there are no people alive at this time on earth. No nations no Satan. He is not needed until there are people that will be judged. Satan will be needed for that purpose only.

Verse 4) - "I saw thrones, and sitting on those thrones were the ones who had been given the right to judge. I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God's message. They were the same ones who had not worshiped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads. They will come to life and rule with Christ for a thousand years." This verse shows those that were sitting on thrones who have the right to judge because they witnessed about Jesus and preached God's message. They refused the beast and His mark and came to life and ruled with Christ a thousand years.

Verse 5) - "But the (ALL - mine) rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." This verse says that the REST of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are finished. The Millennium is NOW OVER and the REST of the dead come to life. Meaning the way I see things - that THE REST WERE DEAD! These peoples were not amongst those of verse four or the first resurrection. ALL those that were not apart of the first resurrection are now brought back until when - not until the thousand years are finished. No mention of this phantom group of people that were supposed to have lived during the millennium. That all the churches think are there, like a paradise. Devoid of any training and hard times or Satan always associated with the process of salvation. If this is not a time for humans to gain salvation it is a waste of time. This in my opinion will be a time for the training of the chosen those that were a part of the first resurrection, those resurrected to age lasting life as spirit beings. We will be here reigning with Christ under His tutelage and God's as well for this thousand years. And Satan will not have any part to play here and he will not be privy to our development. This is off limits - he is not loosed until the thousand years are finished.

Verse 6) -"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." This is saying that those that were a part of the first resurrection will reign with Him a thousand years most likely on earth Rev 5:10. But this is not to exclude the rest of the universe. But there is NO mention of reigning over the nations or humans during the thousand years, ever. Just that we will reign with Him for that thousand years. You ask the question reigning over who. I do not have a complete answer for this but there are innumerable numbers of angels - that would be a good start indeed!

Verse 7) - "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," Now here we see Satan being loosed out of his bondage. And notice this very carefully, then he goes out and resumes his duties deceiving the nations. That is when the nations are brought back AFTER the Millennium. Absolutely no mention of people being transported out of the thousand years Millennium unto the stage in the group that were brought back to life after the thousand years were finished. It is also true that if there were a phantom group such as this they would not be dead at the end of the Millennium. No where is it mentioned as well that there would be live people brought back, just the rest of the dead. The "churches" do not have the bugs worked out of this very unlikely event. What happens when Satan reappears on the scene - the trouble begins but this time through special circumstances all these harsh issues are resolved eventually. This is the last period involving humans called the GREAT WHITE THRONE (GWT) or the Mosaic Feast of Tabernacles which was the shadow of this GREAT HARVEST! Rev 20:11 - the time of the defeat of death - the last enemy I Cor 15:26! Satan will be hard at it again, read verses 8&9 of Revelation. Tough times ahead still for mankind, indeed!

8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. " This mass of humanity is gathered together as in "FROM" the four quarters. It looks like they must journey to make battle with the saints. Remember at this point you are dealing with a vast population. About 100 Billion roughly! As explained previously this is post Millennium in time, after that thousand years were finished. This includes all the dead vs. 5. And vs. 7 says that when the thousand years are expired (same time period as vs. 5) Satan will be loosed to, and he (Satan), will deceive the nations to participate in this battle. There is no mention of any physical humans transferring over from the supposed group that lived during the Millennium. These humans that were left over at the Parousia - living for a thousand years with Christ to me is a notion with no substantiation!

9) "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." This is a scene that is somewhat vague as to the content of those employed in this endeavour. I believe if this is describing an army compassing the camp of the saints and the beloved city (Jerusalem) that this battle is local pertaining to that area and not global in scope. And we must consider another aspect of this battle and gathering. If this is to be an army and that is likely, to go into battle, what would the army consist of. Would not the most probably solution to this question that this army would consist of younger able bodied adults. Not infants, their mothers and the like. So the point here seems to be that not all the human race would be destroyed here at this time. What is obviously meant is, that their destruction would be sudden, certain, and entire, and that thus these enemies of God and would be destroyed. Nothing can be determined from this about the "means" by which this destruction will be effected; and that must be left for time to disclose. It is sufficient to know that the destruction of these last foes of God and the church will be certain and entire. This "language," as denoting the final destruction of the enemies of God, is often employed in the Scriptures. See Psa 11:6; Isa 29:6; Eze 38:22; Eze 39:6.

10) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Satan has served his purpose. He has been the adversary for all. The beast and false prophet both symbolize the flesh and Satan is obviously the adversary. Combined they represent all that the elect overcome. Likewise they must be destroyed for all others to be saved and for this reason we see Satan now going into the lake of fire. His mission and purpose have been completed. He is depicted going into the lake of fire before all others because the flesh or carnality within him is so much greater than it is in all others. But know this…he also will be saved, 'yet so as by fire'.


11) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." Here we see the Great White Throne Judgment or the judgment of all who are not God's elect. That's right…the throne's white, not black, so we know that there is righteousness in this judgment. This shouldn't come as a surprise because we experienced the very same type of judgment during our lives.

So what then is meant by 'the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them'? The earth and heaven here have nothing to do with the Babylonian definitions for these words. What are being talked about here are the earth of man and the heaven of man. In the presence of God, on that day of judgment when all others are judged by their works, there will be no place for man's flesh (his earth) or for the carnality of his mind (his heaven). Such as it was for the elect, after the fall of Babylon within them and after having exited their 'prison' or 'Tarsus' experience.

12) "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." [Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (Hebrews 10:7)] Look, just like us, all others are judged by their works. The dead, 'spiritually' dead, are judged out of the Book of the life of the Lamb. They are judged by the word of God and whether or not they have kept His commandments. This is exactly what Christ has said would happen all along. This is exactly the same way He judged us and we judged ourselves and others during the course of our lifetime. Remember God is not a respecter of persons. [For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11)] [These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment. (Proverbs 24:23)] He judges all according to their works and whether or not their works are burned, the person shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)]


13) "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead whicwere in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." This is showing that all of the 'spiritually' dead must be judged. The sea, as we already know represents all of humanity. Death and hell (Hades) give up the dead in that all who are 'spiritually' dead come to be judged here. This includes all those who have physically died and were 'sleeping' or in the condition of Hades which we have thoroughly established to be the condition after death and prior to resurrection. All of this is the second resurrection.


14)"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." This is death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire. There's another crucial point that needs to be brought up here and that is that all death will ultimately be destroyed. [The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:26)] Both death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire because in order for all death to be destroyed, 'physical' death and the condition after 'physical' death must first be abolished.

Equally as crucial is the need for us to see that the lake of fire and the second death are both one and the same. [And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)] [But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)] If we believe the words of Jesus Christ, all death will be destroyed. For death to be destroyed, the second death or lake of fire must also be destroyed. Otherwise, death is not destroyed. I know we've heard all our lives about the never ending suffering by all in the lake of fire but as we already know, all that we had learned was 'strong delusion'. The lake of fire, or second death, will be destroyed when all death is destroyed after all have been purged by the consuming fire of God and all have been saved through Jesus Christ.

So how is death destroyed? Death can only be destroyed by giving all life. Is this what God's word says? Will all truly, one day, be made alive? [For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)] Yes and it is all part of God's glorious plan.


15)"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." We, the elect, are the ones whose names are found in the book of life because Christ lives His life out in us. But with all others, such is not the case. Christ only lives His life in those of His elect and therefore the names of all others are not going to be found in the book of His life.

And just like us who experienced the consuming fire of God in our trials and tribulations throughout our lifetime, all others must experience that same consuming fire. All others must and will experience it in the lake of fire, in 'the presence of the holy angels' and 'the Lamb'. [For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29)] [The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Revelation 14:10)]


John

Hi John

Moved that in the Revelation board, will look at it in more detail when I have time to analyse what you shared - it is publically viewable

Blessings

I find it very interesting how economics is a philosophy that behaves very much like religion. We on this forum do not think like the religions of this world. We do not conform to their doctrines or their ways. Much of the same is true about economics - we can see the dangers of too much debt and that too much consumer spending is not healthy. Under consumption is the true source of prosperity as it engenders capital formation, which lies at the root of sustainable economic growth. We have lost our way as a nation - can we recover from this massive debt - when we do not manufacture anymore? Like the James McMurtry tune goes "We Can't Make it Here Anymore" Or are we headed for a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ErYR_poHv0


Look at Federal trust funds when it comes to the $trillions of unfunded liabilities that the government owes toward Social Security and Medicare programs. Or in other words money that the government owes to itself. These trust funds are like writing yourself a check and then claiming the amount of the check as an asset.


The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
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John

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Lots of tenacles, aren't there?

Yet a voice among the "voices" ...........a peace amidst the trouble..........a sure foundation...........how

blessed we are to have HIM guiding us. There is no end to His River!

Lemuel,

Thank you for your response. Yes this whole world has been influenced to go in a very wrong direction. The following video is an example "how silly can you get" - listen to the absurd comments by Mike Norman. Shortcut to: http://hardassetsinvestor.com/viewVideo.php?id=800


John

Interesting thread Johnny,

To me it appears that the system of this world as we have known it operates on politics, religion and money which like Babylon is scheduled to fall and perish after they have run the course and the purpose of them has been served, when the fullness of time arrives these things are not going to be as they now are, to some of us now these things in our personal walk by faith no longer are as they were, we are all being changed one by one.


Peace,
Fire Walker

Fire Walker,

Well said my friend. It is in vain do we ask which is prior. All these things - MONEY - POLITICS and RELIGION are always concurrently in exercise and are mutually conditioning and are scheduled to collapse according to God's will. Thank you so much for your interest, this is rare indeed!

John

Hi John,

I'm so glad you decided to post this in the forum and I look forward to everyone's comments.

As far as "the times" are concerned, I do wonder where we are in God's great plan. Seems every time I turn around there is another special on TV on everything that can destroy this Earth (asteroids, plagues, calderas, global warming). Seem there are the capabilities now that we never had back in history (even as little as 50 years ago).

I am so thankful for God and that I have that assurance. I wonder how people without Him even deal with all this. But I guess they don't deal at all. Most have their heads in sand and continue in their delusions.

I'd be interested in your and everyone else's opinion on what we are to do with this information? Some believers pay no mind and others get very into it. I guess balance is key. I think we can be smart in not having any debt and being somewhat prepared for the unexpected. Things like a few days supplies in case of an earthquake. I live in the Seattle area so that's always been a possibility.

How many were caught off guard at Katrina? So I think some smart thinking and preparation isn't a bad thing. But ultimately we just have to trust the Father and know that He's in control. I continue to know Him more as I know that as my relationship deepens, so does my trust in Him for my future.

Blessings and look forward to more sharing!

Dawn

P.S. The Revelations 20 study was even better the third time reading it. I'm still contemplating but so far, I don't find anything un-scriptural in what you put forth

Hi John,

I enjoy your in-site into economics! It's interesting to look at it as having a shared world view with religion. The mighty prophets of economics preach 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace!

Jer 8:9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have? 10 "Therefore I will give their wives to others, Their fields to new owners; Because from the least even to the greatest Everyone is greedy for gain; From the prophet even to the priest Everyone practices deceit. 11 "They heal the brokenness of the daughter of My people superficially, Saying, 'Peace, peace,' But there is no peace.

Paul

Dawn,

I am very grateful for your letter, Dawn. Thank you for the incentive to post Revelation 20. I can only hope that it will find favour. The goal that you seek here is balance. This is by far the most difficult of all to achieve - but it is a must - to look at this from all sides. And with some work and help from those on this forum I am hoping to learn much.

Dawn you say that - "I am so thankful for God and that I have that assurance. I wonder how people without Him even deal with all this. But I guess they don't deal at all. Most have their heads in sand and continue in their delusions." Yes I agree - people in general want to hang on to the physical and that is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome for those with their heads in the sand. And it is completely understandable - without the assurances that God is in control and the knowledge that He knows what He is doing, would be a great burden, indeed!. There will be a good outcome from this process! This is our collective belief and wonderful way to "take the heat off"!

You mentioned as well that there is always another special on TV showing some new thing that we are threatened from. (asteroids, plagues, calderas, global warming) etc. So the question that arises, what really is an authentic danger from all this reporting and how can we determine when these things are going to happen? I think it is truly impossible to know for sure when or what will happen. IMO the closes that we can come to any answer is through ponderable evidence.

There are many potential threats and when the end time comes there will be no shortage of difficulties. But what is most striking to me looking at the landscape is how quickly such a confluence of events can evolve to create a complete nightmare and or an end time scenario. The following is a wake up call for me.

One of the most striking features of this time in particular is the great imbalances economically in world trade. The USA runs a huge trade deficit every month of between $60 Billion to $70 Billion. That is about $2 Billion per day. And the US does not manufacture goods in return to anywhere near balance that out. Just go to the store, any store such as Wal-Mart, Staples, Home Depot and see where things are made - they are made in China, southeastern Asia, India, Japan and Germany. We can't make it here anymore. The US imports 70% of it's oil - today it was $129.57/ barrel - that's double of what it was a year ago - and that is driving the deficit just crazy. The US has 4% of global population and consumes a staggering 25% (22,000,000 barrels per day) of the daily world output of oil.

The the federal Budget Deficit is 9 plus Trillion Dollars - that's the funded part - the unfunded part is 40 plus Trillion Dollars, for a total of $50 Billion. The Central Bank (FED) is printing money and securitizing Wall Street creating huge inflationary pressures that will collapse the Dollar. If the dollar collapses and the US defaults on its debts (Treasuries) - the world will not accept your IOUS anymore. They will not sell you manufactured goods or oil. These current conditions are far worse than what eventually caused the 1929 depression.

I could go on here but, this can cause allot of pain and brings the possibility of a war very close. This is only one of many problems the world faces. But this is the one problem that could trigger repressed political, religious animosities and a desire to secure scarce resourses as FIRE WALKER says. This leds me to believe that we are in big trouble and we must watch how this unwinds!

John

Hi Paul,

What a great scripture to quote. Jer 8:9~11 - "Because from the least even to the greatest Everyone is greedy for gain; From the prophet even to the priest Everyone practices deceit." I wonder if there is anybody down on Wall Street that practices deceit - nnooo that couldn't be!

As a nation we have bought into this great "superficiality"!

John

Paul,

In addition to what you described as "The mighty prophets of economics preach 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace!" We must realize in no uncertain terms that just like the prophets of gain of old we in these times have modern day prophets telling us grandiose lies and configuring nonsence that we should believe. They rival the call to "peace" the dollar is just fine and trade imbalances well that is the way we do business!? Economics and religion have allot in common. See if you can pick out the "sensible prophets" in these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_APRkr ... re=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3g5lUgkWk

John

Often I ponder, if it isn't false religious authorities, power and economcal (financial) rule and power joined together that dictate the political correctness of the day that is used as a means to play God with peoples lives in this world? In revelation we see there are two beasts the second is like the first, one beast has to be Religion and the other Politics, both using money as the hammer that effects the economics that have ruled over us and have manipulated this world in the most basest of ways?

Peace,
Fire Walker

Fire Walker,

Thank you for your comments. Yes, a good case can be made for a conspiracy amongst all those in power over the affairs of this world. It is interesting to note that Daniel makes a rather blunt description of those that God appoints or (giveth) rule. Dan4:17 - "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."We have the basest of men in position here by God's will to rule over mankind. One of the reasons why I started this thread was to ring an alarm bell and draw attention to what amounts to decades of economic and environmental mismanagement. And the results of which will impact our lives in the most profound of ways. Even though it is not a new story, as I said being decades long, the real serious problem began in 2007 with the real estate bust. Now things have progressed very rapidly, to the credit bubble, high inflation, energy prices skyrocketing - working its way to a collapse in the dollar. We now are a country of spenders and borrowers not producers and savers, which the latter is the way it should be.

But I do not want to give anyone the idea that I want to only talk about these physical issues without addressing the overall spiritual lessons of stewardship. This I believe is what God is doing here and now in particular. He is showing us what not to do - so we can learn valuable lessons for the future, IMO.

John

Hi John - this brings up a good question for me that I'd like to throw out there for some opinions.

Knowing that there are so many different beliefs on "end times" from preterism to futurism and everything in between.
As I've shared with you, I used to really be "into" the whole eschatology/prophecy of last days study. So I find it fascinating. What I wonder about now is how "relevant" is it now? Maybe that's not the right word.

How concerned, how educated should we be about all these worldly things going on? Obviously the economy here in the U.S. is going in the toilet. To those who WANT to know, the evidence is everywhere. It seems most people don't want to know. We're lulled to sleep by our media and we're brainwashed into thinking that all is good in the world and "this too shall pass" -- that's the attitude I find out in the secular world.

Then there is the "Christian" world, which seems a combination of groups who are spreading the doom and gloom/world's going to end soon message and then an even bigger group (IMO) that, like the world, is pretty much blind to what is going on.

What would God have us do? We're not to worry, that much is a given. Does that mean, we don't need to educate ourselves as to what is going on? Is this indeed a part of stewardship? We're in the world but not of the world. Does that wash away any responsibility to try to make that world a little better by voting in responsible representatives, by networking and trying to make a difference in our countries? Is that not part of "loving" everyone? Wanting to play a part in making things better (always having in mind that God's will be done of course).

Sorry I'm rambling. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what part (if any) we are to play. What our responsibilities are (if any), etc. Would love to hear people's opinions on this.

Peace

Dawn

P.S. I guess I should put forth my opinion and its open to correction. I think we do have a responsibility. I think it is all part of loving our neighbors. How can we love if we don't care who gets elected to office (look what's happened the last 8 years just as an example). How can I know that our civil liberties are being stripped away little by little and do nothing? If I have love for my brother, would I not want to do all I can to make the world a little better? That may not be God's will for this country. But I can't assume His will so my desire is to work to make positive changes, all the while trusting the outcome to Him.

Hi Dawn,

Thank you for this excellent response. Your post is so rich with the right kind of questions that we should be asking ourselves and it is most unusual. The right answers must be accompanied by the right questions - your questions show great insight and wisdom that few possess. I would imagine many here on this forum have thought about these issues as well and I as well as you do Dawn, want to here from them.

I only wish that this message or overall theme about this current economic crisis and its potential to cause great difficulty in the tensions between nations, was communicable. But sadly, only so few can see this tsunami on the horizon to us. As you have put so well "We're lulled to sleep by our media and we're brainwashed into thinking that all is good in the world and "this too shall pass" -- that's the attitude I find out in the secular world." That is the truest statement that I could ever hear. The masses are asleep to these warning signs. I think it is more than fair to point out that bread and butter issues like the economy are what DOES CAUSE WARS. Reflect on World War II - Adolph Hitler came to power because of the economic conditions in Germany, when it took a wheel barrow full of paper currency to buy a loaf of bread. Japan went to war with the US when Roosevelt cut off their oil supplies. I wonder if the USA would go to war over the acquisition of oil when they import 72% from other countries, if they were suddenly cut off because their dollar collapsed in value? Foreign exporters of oil would not get even IOU'S they could trust.

Economic problems on this scale have the capacity to induce any and all problems to the point of the destruction for all things. If these conditions are not responsible for the destruction of the planet - they will at least cause the greatest difficulty that we have ever seen in the history of the world. I say this with confidence because the SCALE of these economic problems! Imbalances and debts are so huge they are off the meter. We will all have to wait and see how this unwinds.

It is my hope this concern of mine is not a subjective call that is not shallow and devoid of any research. I truly believe that you will be able to follow this story on CNBC, CNN or Fox business news. There are some good YouTube features. You must pick through them like anything else - when you are looking for answers and facts. It does take time and patience to sort out what makes sense. At this point in time IMO we are going to enter into swift moving events that are going to be very easy to pick out. I do not see this as a great mystery that is unfolding. It will be a very transparent historical event.

Dawn, you make some good points about what we can do. Like this election that is going on in the US. The only candidate that was close to any real solution was Ron Paul. What he proposed was to end the "fait currency and economy" have a gold backed dollar, get rid of the IRS, stop policing the world and bring the troops home - that to me is a good start. Something must be done NOW to straighten it out! Time is running out. But there is no candidate that is going to cause the necessary pain required to make us a nation of savers and producers again like things we prior to 1980.

This is my small part right now. As far as theology is concerned I have been around the block a few times and find the Bible an interesting book that has the basics of all knowledge. A wonderful Book that shows us who God is and His plan of UR. But we must go beyond the information given in this Book for the details. Whether it is in the physical sciences, health issues and we must learn how to eak out a living and get an education to survive in this world. And a necessary part of this educational process is a basic understanding of economics. And yes Dawn, we should always where possible become part of the solution and not part of the problem. But people are going to be caught in a slamming door of events. I have been watching for some thirty-five years for such events to take place that could trigger endtime Biblical conditions and now I believe that these underlying problems that we are experiencing at this time have the potential to cause the destruction of all life. I further believe this current economic crisis can be less of an impact on people if 1( they have knowledge what is coming - the nature of this problem and how it dramatically differs from all others that proceeded it, and 2) what steps to take that are practical, that may serve to help people. Lets get the word out these are dead serious concerns.

John

Hi John,

I'll check out the link you pm'd to me. I read your last post and I find much to agree with.
I'll tell you the following quote by Thomas Jefferson has come to mind several times this last year....

"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction."

That's the key issue in the U.S. (and elsewhere) - nobody wants to sacrifice, to go without and most think there won't ever be consequences. Yet there will be. There always are...

I look forward to learning more on this subject and trying to get out the message -- even if most just flip their eyelids at me.

Have a safe and enjoyable holiday weekend. I know I'll be thinking about all those who have given the greatest sacrifice in hope for a better future.

God Bless!
Dawn

Here is a good article that explains the real reason why we are in the midst of very noticable inflation - far more than the 2% that is reported!

It’s Not an Oil Crisis, It’s a Dollar Crisis.


It is unfortunate that the Supreme Court, in its ruling this week that U.S. currency is unfair to the blind, did not make the next logical step and declare it unfair to everyone who buys gasoline.

In their search for explanations as to why oil has surged past $130 per barrel, Washington, Wall Street, and the financial media are as clueless as cavemen after a freak summer snow storm. Despite the head scratching, the blame game is nevertheless in full force. Speculators and big oil companies are being trotted out as scapegoats, and increased margin requirements and taxes on windfall profits and futures trading have been mentioned as appropriate sanctions. In fact, this week the House of Representatives overwhelming approved a bill to sue OPEC for violating U.S. anti trust laws. It should be clear that all of this is pure farce, and that no one understands what is actually happening.

The reality is that after years of reckless consumption and dollar debasement, Americans are now being priced out of markets over which they formerly held unchallenged title. As more affluent foreigners consume more of the resources and products they previously supplied to us, Americans are being forced to cut back. The rising dollar-based price of gasoline is simply an illustration of this global trend.

Poorly concealed behind contrived government statistics, the signs of America’s falling standard of living are everywhere; all one has to do is look. We are unloading SUVs for less desirable compacts, and are paying more to fly on crowded planes (where we pay to check luggage and dine only on what we bring onboard). We drink our lattes at McDonalds or not at all, and we increasingly forego dining out, trips to the mall, and vacations, just so we can scrape together enough to fill our gas tanks and kitchen pantries, pay taxes and insurance, or make credit card, mortgage or car payments.

The collective belt tightening is simply the down payment on the Government’s massive bailout of Wall Street investment banks and mortgage lenders. As the Fed creates money to buy bad mortgages and other shaky securities held by banks and brokerage firms, the value of the savings and wages of everyone on Main Street will continue to fall. As a result, the costs of products previously taken for granted have begun to bite.

The various housing bills and stimulus packages now passing through Congress will add significantly to the staggering final price tag. In the end, the “free lunch” currently being dished out by Washington will be the most expensive meal ever served. The cost will be borne by ordinary Americans citizens every time they open their wallets. Four dollar gasoline is just the beginning.

For all the talk of increased global demand, few seem to understand from where it actually comes. The surge in global demand is both a function of the increased purchasing power of foreign currencies and the fact that foreigners are choosing to spend more of their incomes themselves. In other words Greenspan’s famous “global savings glut” is turning into a global consumption binge, with Americans unable to crash the party. This trend will only get worse as the dollar-denominated price of just about everything that is either imported, or capable of being exported, goes through the roof.

We can look for scapegoats all we want but the simply fact is Americans are going to have to get used to a much lower standard of living. Those who have been putting all the food on our tables are finally pulling up chairs themselves.

John

As our dollar loses purchasing power the central bankers are in the process of creating a "Banquet of Consequences"! Check out this article about Dow Chemical - I wonder if inflation can be kept in the reported 2% range now.
John



Consumers hit hard in recent months by sharply higher prices for gasoline and food should prepare to start paying more for various household items following Dow Chemical Co.'s decision to raise its prices by up to 20 percent to offset the soaring cost of energy. Better start stocking up on diapers and detergent.



The company, which announced the price increases Wednesday, took the unusual step of directing blame at the nation's energy policy makers.

"For years, Washington has failed to address the issue of rising energy costs and, as a result, the country now faces a true energy crisis, one that is causing serious harm to America's manufacturing sector and all consumers of energy," Andrew Liveris, Dow Chemical's chairman and chief executive, said in a written statement.

Dow Chemical's spiraling costs are "forcing difficult discussions with customers," he said.

The Midland, Mich.-based company supplies a broad swath of industries, from agriculture to health care, and any sizable price jumps would likely affect almost all of them.

The price increases will take effect Sunday and will be based on a product's exposure to rising costs. Dow Chemical said it spent $8 billion on energy and hydrocarbon-based feedstock, or raw materials, back in 2002 and that could climb fourfold to $32 billion this year.

Dow Chemical makes everything from the propylene glycols used in antifreeze, coolants, solvents, cosmetics and pharmaceuticals, to acrylic acid-based products used in detergents, wastewater-treatment and disposable diapers.

It makes key ingredients used in paints, textiles, glass, packaging and cars.

The company, whose products are sold in 160 countries, last month reported a 3 percent drop in quarterly earnings amid a 42 percent jump in energy and raw materials costs.

Its profit margins shrank from 9.8 percent in 2005 to 7.6 percent in 2006, and to 5.4 percent last year. During the 12-month period that ended March 31, the margin narrowed to 5.1 percent, according to Capital IQ.

Crude oil prices surpassed $135 a barrel last week, more than double the price from a year ago. Rising energy and transportation costs have been blamed for higher food prices, which rose 5 percent last year, the highest gain in 17 years.

Kevin McCarthy, a Banc of America Securities analyst, said in a note to investors there is "a growing unwillingness among chemical producers to function as an energy shock absorber."

"To be sure, cost inflation is not new; it has been an ongoing battle for Dow and others in recent years," he wrote. "However, we are seeing a new sense of urgency at Dow, and its competitors, to pass along escalating and volatile costs in an environment of decelerating demand."

Price increases from major suppliers significantly affect the cost of manufacturing, said Angie Chaplin, a spokeswoman for Solo Cup Co. The Highland Park, Ill.-based company is a customer of Dow Chemical.

"We absorb as much of these increases as we can through greater efficiency in our own operations, but we have no choice other than to pass on some of the increased cost to our customers," she said.

Companies and entire industries are looking for ways to share increases in the cost of doing business, said Mark Stephenson, a spokesman for chemical giant BASF Corp. in Florham Park, N.J.

"For us, BASF, we don't consider prices across the board, like you saw with Dow," Stephenson said. "Rather, we look at the necessity for increases on a product-by-product basis."

He said BASF had raised its prices for "a handful of products" during the past three months, but he did not know how many products had gone up in the year.

Another competitor, Rohm and Haas Co., announced April 29 that, beginning this month, it will apply an indexed raw materials and energy surcharge to products made by its Specialty Materials businesses. The index will be adjusted up or down monthly, based on the collective changes in key raw material, crude oil and natural gas costs, according to the Philadelphia-based company's Web site.

On Friday, suburban Dallas-based Kimberly-Clark Corp. announced that the consumer products maker will raise prices 6 percent to 8 percent beginning in late July for Huggies diapers, Pull-Ups training pants, and Cottenelle and Scott bathroom tissue. Company spokesman Joey Mooring declined to comment on Dow Chemical's price increases.

Paul Fox, a spokesman for Procter & Gamble Co., said Wednesday the company announced some pricing changes earlier this year and had no immediate response to the action being taken by Dow Chemical. Cincinnati-based P&G reiterated in April that more price increases were coming this summer.

Whatever happened to the law of supply and demand? Oil up 100% in one year? Look at motor car manufacturers, has their output doubled in the past year? Is China the reason? They have their own oil, one of the reasons Japan invaded them in WWII.

While your bankers dropped interest to inject into the economy, our reserve bank want to increase interest by 2% to curb inflation, our power utility wants a 42% hike in price because thay cannot meet the demand (dumb asses stopped building power stations 17 years ago)

So brace yourself for a WW economic crash.

It is ironic that the consumers have so little power?

I am a libertarian in that I want the govm't out of my pocketbook and life as much as possible. But, with the Federal Reserve pretty much controlling all our money, and politicians voting more and more of our freedoms away, that just isn't possible nowadays. I like Ron Paul and wish he had a chance of winning, but, most Americans are too tied into the Dems. or Repubs. Michael Savage calls them the Demicans or Republocrats. They both seem the same to me anymore, just the Repubs. are a little slower in stealing our rights, but, steal them they must if they want the vote..

As far as voting is concerned, I see that as a matter of conscience, not law. If I feel convicted to vote for a candidate, I will. But, it seems as if it's always the "lesser of two evils" I must pick.

Thank you Bernie and Shibboleth for your great comments. And a special thank you to Bernie for this forum that lets us explore outside UR but have a similar focus to God's plan for mankind.

Bernie, you say - "So brace yourself for a WW economic crash. " Yes I believe it is coming. Huge trade deficits on current account and equally huge capital surpluses have created immense imbalances that are getting worse by billions of dollars per day. Trillions of dollars have accumulated in the last three decades. The US Treasury Dept./Fed. have flooded the local and foreign markets with so much liquidity that the purchasing power of the currencies all over the world are suffering from this asymmetrical system. And there is an awful lot of money to be printed yet. The demographic time bomb that is short $50 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities for social security dwarfs the federal funded deficit of almost $10 Trillion - the printing presses will need new bearings soon as they try to print their way out of this mess. This will destroy the dollar's purchasing power even further wiping out consumers. China and Opec will not carry us anymore with worthless IOUS.

Shibboleth you say well that there is no way that the Dems or Repubs have a plan to get us out of this mess. It is interesting that the US public would not support Ron Paul. It is because people on all levels do NOT understand the true nature of the problem. We cannot continue spending and borrowing for things that we can ill afford. And other countries that save half of what they earn, produce all the goods and oil, will run out of patience. They will stop accepting worthless paper in return for their products and won't lend to us anymore! I do not know how long these pressures can be withstood - but when it breaks the social and political consequences of an abrupt and severe reduction in living standards caused by deprivation on a massive scale will produce violence and anarchy. Hang onto your hat, an economic disaster is coming down the tracks. There will be reprieves such as today with the dollar at 105 yen and 1.56 euro but the fundamentals have not changed, the US is the world's all-time greatest debtor nation with the presses running. It will not be a pretty sight!!!

John

I have quoted Peter Schiff many times on the Tentmaker Forum relating to a similiar thread. I believe Peter has the right grasp of this "Current Economic Crisis" and he was an supporter and advisor of Ron Paul. Here is a startling perspective from Peter Schiff that we should all take note of IMO! This will affect us in a very profound way. We have never lived though such events before - so it is time to get ready for the worst. A warning is only of value if the warning is given "BEFORE" the trouble comes into being, not "AFTER"! I hope this does not sound out of lockstep with reality, even though it is alarming by nature!

John


By Kirk Shinkle
Posted May 30, 2008


Economic punditry tends to fall broadly into glass-half-full or half-empty categories. Then there are those who see a cracked glass, teetering on the edge of a table just moments from a shattering fall. Enter Peter Schiff, the permabear president of brokerage Euro Pacific Capital and coauthor of last year's Crash Proof: How to Profit From the Coming Economic Collapse. Schiff spent the past decade urging brokerage clients to jump ship from the American economy ahead of what he views as inevitable pain caused by a toxic cocktail of lax monetary policy, wayward spending, and tougher competition from all corners of the globe.

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Even with some pain already felt as America's economy stumbles, Schiff saw nothing but downside in a recent chat with U.S. News. You'll want to buckle up for some characteristically apocalyptic talk from one of the gloomiest market watchers around. Excerpts:

Say something positive about the U.S. economy.
There's nothing good to say about our situation. The policies both the Fed and government are pursuing are making the situation worse. We've been getting a free ride on the global gravy train. Other countries are starting to reclaim their resources and goods, so as Americans are priced out of various markets, the rest of the world is going to enjoy the consumption of goods Americans had previously purchased. This is a natural consequence of this phony economy. If America had maintained a viable economy and continued to produce goods instead of merely consuming them, and if we had saved money instead of borrowing, our standard of living could rise with everybody else's. Instead, we gutted our manufacturing, let our infrastructure decay, and encouraged our citizens to borrow with reckless abandon.

So what are you doing about it?
I'm getting my clients' money outside of the United States as fast as they can send it to me. I've been recommending that to my clients for close to 10 years. You've got to own resources and energy. I was saying oil was going to $200 a barrel in 2002. I've been buying gold, silver, industrial metals, and all kinds of stocks. My main theme is the global economy will survive and the U.S. economy is a disaster. Everything is about how you benefit from the increased purchasing power and rising standard of living in the rest of the world.

OK, where are the best non-U.S. markets this year?
I still like Singapore, Hong Kong. Asian markets are the place to be. I like resource markets like Scandinavia. I'm spreading my chips around the world. I'm just avoiding the United States.

What are your best or worst calls through this downturn?
I've been bearish on bonds. U.S. bonds have lost a lot of real value but not nominal value. I still think that's going to be proven to be correct. While the housing bubble was inflating, I was telling people to rent. I was telling people to get out of tech stocks in 1998 and 1999. They kept rising, but then they collapsed, and I turned out to be right. The reality is I don't think I've been wrong on anything.

Most people disagree with that sort of pessimism. If you're staying in the United States, how do you invest?
If you want to be in U.S markets, you avoid anything connected with the American economy. You avoid retailers, the home builders, the financials—anything having to do with consumers buying something or paying back the money they borrowed. If you want to invest in U.S. markets, stick with exporters and resource companies. I've been saying that for five or six years; I haven't gotten anything wrong. We shorted subprime mortgages. I have clients that made 10 times their money. We've never sold an oil stock. We've never sold a gold stock.

Why don't you think soaring oil, grains, or commodities prices are the next bubble?
These prices do not constitute bubbles. They simply constitute the repricing of goods to reflect the diminished value of our money. The way you can tell there's not a bubble is that these markets are clearing. People are buying food and eating it. They're buying gasoline and using it. Speculators aren't buying gasoline and warehousing it in big facilities because they think the price is going to go up. At the same time, we've increased the supply of money dramatically, and the Fed is increasing it even faster now to deal with the bursting of the housing bubble. The only thing that can happen is for prices of commodities to rise to reflect the equilibrium of a greater supply of money. It's not even that oil prices are going up. Oil prices are staying the same. What's happening is the value of money is diminishing, so we need more units of currency to buy the same amount of oil or wheat or corn or whatever.

How about some predictions?
• I think the stock market is headed lower. Gold is going to be $1,200 to $1,500 by the end of the year. That puts the Dow at a less-than-10-to-1 price ratio to gold. Right now, it's about 13 to 1. That's another 30 percent drop in the real value of stocks by the end of the year if you price them in gold. The Dow was worth 43 ounces of gold in 2000. It'll get to 10 by the end of the year and continue to fall from there.

• Oil prices had a pretty big run and might not make more headway by the end of the year. But we could see $150 to $200 next year. I don't think oil will hit $250 because there will be enough destruction of demand in the United States to keep it from doubling. The big problem for us is if the Chinese substantially allow their currency to rise. It could increase at least fivefold against the dollar over the span of a year or two. That reduces the price of oil by 80 percent for 1.3 billion Chinese. Consumption would go through the roof, and that will drive prices through the roof for us.

• At a minimum, the dollar will lose another 40 to 50 percent of its value. I'm confident that by next year we'll see more aggressive movements to abandon the dollar by the [Persian] Gulf region and by the Asian bloc. That's where the stuff really hits the fan.

You're a Ron Paul adviser. He's out of contention, so who wins the election, and what happens then?
The Obama presidency will be like the Jimmy Carter presidency on steroids. I'm pretty sure it's Obama because the economy will be so bad into the election that as damaged a candidate as the guy is, I don't think a Republican could beat him. I think Ron Paul could've had a slim chance because he was different enough.

So how bad do you think this economy will get?
The other problem we'll have during those years is civil [unrest]. There will be a big increase in crime. People are going to be hungry. People are going to be cold. There's a sense of entitlement in this country, and when a lot of people used to having things suddenly don't, everybody looks for someone to blame.

Really?
We're going through a very rough period in our history. In many ways, it's going to be worse than the Depression.

Peter Schiff

Thank you SeekerSA - World Events bests suits this thread.
John

I just had to respond to this comment. The U.S. public didn't support Ron Paul because most had NO clue who he was. I'm not sure how it is in other countries but here in the U.S., it is the mainstream media that "decides" what we get to find out about. And the MSM are owned by just a few corporations and the only thing they care about is money.

Dr. Paul was never given a chance. He was given very few questions in all the debates (but the ones he did answer got applause) and when someone did talk about him (especially Fox News), it was in a derogatory manner. Journalists would make negative remarks like "oh he just has an internet following" as if anyone on the Internet was a fruitcake.

You're right John, most Americans don't understand the problems. I didn't understand the problems! I somehow managed to find out about Ron Paul and then proceeded to educate myself using the Internet. Finding out how this president (who I supported) has used 911 to take away our basic rights. He even put through a directive whereby he can postpone/cancel the election if a "catastrophe" were to happen (Presidential Directive 51). This should concern everyone yet no one knows anything that is going on in Washington because its become some "secret" club. Ask anyone what the Patriot Act is and they won't be able to say anything more than "oh that's supposed to help get the bad guys".

Dr. Paul is the only one calling it like it is. Of course he doesn't have all the answers but he at least knows where we are headed. And Americans don't want to hear that. We want to always have our "stuff" and we've become a nation (sadly) of sheeple who just assume that we have a benevolent government.

Ron Paul is still in the race for the nomination. He is still working behind the scenes with the delegates from around the country. There are so many grassroots organizations that are still working to get out his message. One thing I admire about him is that he's always said the "message" is more important than the office. The convention isn't until September. Who knows what can happen between now and then. In the meantime, I'm trying to educate as many as I can although most of them probably think I too am a fruitcake

In November, I will be writing in Ron Paul for president and I'm sure millions of other people will be too.

Thanks for letting me vent a little, as I'm pretty passionate about this. :)

Blessings!
Dawn

P.S. I'm finding the articles you're posting very interesting. I've never had a great grasp of things financial (I'm still learning) but wanted to say thank you for your contributions to this topic!