It is currently Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:18 am



Welcome
Welcome to Abba discussion forum. As a guest browser; you have limited access to view more discussions and access other features - some boards are hidden from public (guest) view. By joining Father's Love forum, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features.

Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so join us today.


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Who is The god/spirit that requires BLOOD?
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:50 am 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
About 3 years ago I had a season where God was feeding me much revelation; there was one topic in particular that was His focus. What He did was intensely show me little pieces of the puzzle in about a week, here and there. I had never received the last pieces to put it to a complete picture so I put it on the shelf and it was so NOT mainstream that I had no one to discuss it with. I was not reading the OT during this time, it just came out of the blue.

This past year topics of “OT God and Sacrifices” all touched on those precious pieces of the puzzle I had and kept confirming what God was showing me…………. I would like to lay out the pieces that I got and was hoping that maybe you all can make some sense of the final pieces…… here it goes.

It started as I was at the movies watching “The Chronicles of Narnia”. It was during the part that the boy did something wrong and the witch “MADE HER DEMAND FOR BLOOD”. And God quickly pointed out to me that it was the ENEMY that demanded blood, NOT HIM”

The next pieces came quickly, God speaking to me that the sacrifices in the OT where NOT of Him and not REQUIRED OF HIM, but the enemy.

Then He brought me to the scriptures that say that Jesus was a RANDSOME and that He came to set people that where “CAPTIVE” free, which means there was something or someone holding them prisoner.

Then he had me see the scripture to the Pharisees that said “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Since I don’t think I really believe in a DEVIL (although I do believe in demons) I am starting to see there is “ANOTHER GOD or SPIRIT” and what I believe what the people where captive to was a God called religion (law). I believe that this is the enemy. This is the thing that has required blood from almost every religion.

These are the pieces:
God did not require Blood but something did.
Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something
What is that something?


I am open to hear anyone’s insights into this….. even if it’s different that what I interpret. I just ask that one doesnt just throw out the normaal religous explinations before really thinking about it deeply :tu:

I have to say that these pieces came as some of the strongest revelation I have ever had. I was alone hearing this and until now had never heard others start to get pieces of truth regarding this. I am so glad that I can share it and get some insight :gh: :bh:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WHO IS THE GOD/SPIRIT THAT REQUIRES BLOOD?
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:49 am 
loveroftruth wrote:
About 3 years ago I had a season where God was feeding me much revelation; there was one topic in particular that was His focus. What He did was intensely show me little pieces of the puzzle in about a week, here and there. I had never received the last pieces to put it to a complete picture so I put it on the shelf and it was so NOT mainstream that I had no one to discuss it with. I was not reading the OT during this time, it just came out of the blue.

This past year topics of “OT God and Sacrifices” all touched on those precious pieces of the puzzle I had and kept confirming what God was showing me…………. I would like to lay out the pieces that I got and was hoping that maybe you all can make some sense of the final pieces…… here it goes.

It started as I was at the movies watching “The Chronicles of Narnia”. It was during the part that the boy did something wrong and the witch “MADE HER DEMAND FOR BLOOD”. And God quickly pointed out to me that it was the ENEMY that demanded blood, NOT HIM”

The next pieces came quickly, God speaking to me that the sacrifices in the OT where NOT of Him and not REQUIRED OF HIM, but the enemy.

Then He brought me to the scriptures that say that Jesus was a RANDSOME and that He came to set people that where “CAPTIVE” free, which means there was something or someone holding them prisoner.

Then he had me see the scripture to the Pharisees that said “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Since I don’t think I really believe in a DEVIL (although I do believe in demons) I am starting to see there is “ANOTHER GOD or SPIRIT” and what I believe what the people where captive to was a God called religion (law). I believe that this is the enemy. This is the thing that has required blood from almost every religion.

These are the pieces:
God did not require Blood but something did.
Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something
What is that something?


I am open to hear anyone’s insights into this….. even if it’s different that what I interpret. I just ask that one doesnt just throw out the normaal religous explinations before really thinking about it deeply :tu:

I have to say that these pieces came as some of the strongest revelation I have ever had. I was alone hearing this and until now had never heard others start to get pieces of truth regarding this. I am so glad that I can share it and get some insight :gh: :bh:


One will have to excuse my traditionalist views here....

Quote:
God did not require Blood but something did.
Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something
What is that something?

For mine God did require Blood..its symoblic of the TRU life source..who is Chrst... for mine if we Opt to dismiss the LAW given by Moses to the Isralites..then we can just thnk for ourselves...dangerous path..

First came the shadow then the reality.if we fail to see types and shadows in the Old we will read what we read and take it so...

God instituted the Law through Moses...hebrews 9 ..pretty clear to me...
the ushering in ofthe New meant the spilt blood of the Testator...I cant see the problem...


what was that SOMETHING?

to release those HELD in Bondage(..the law of Moses)

The law ( religion of its day) indeed is often termed in the spiritual as , slave , bondage , Child , jail, BLIND etc..The law didnt bring Life only death , the ministry of death , twas thse leaders of the day which sat in Moses seat which kept MANY in such Bondage and fear...

As mentioned n a post on another thread the pathway to TRUE Life is THOUGH the Doorway..the theives and robbers were Mensteaers of TrUE LIFE...THOSE AGAIN WHO SAT IN Moses Seat....

NOTHING TO DEEP TO THINK OF FOR MINE...

Blessings
Taffy








.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:14 am 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Thanks Taffy for your response :giveflower: :giveflower:
I guess no one else wants to discuss :sad:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:41 pm 
Offline
M
M
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am
Posts: 318
loveroftruth wrote:
Thanks Taffy for your response :giveflower: :giveflower:
I guess no one else wants to discuss :sad:


Just so you know LOT, your post is being read and pondered upon :sohappy:
- byron


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:29 pm 
Offline
M
M

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:50 pm
Posts: 186
Just saw this post today, LOT, and I'm pondering it also. Can't say I agree with Taffy, as I don't see the OT God as different from NT God. And, the OT God required LOTS of blood to be appeased. Symbolic or not, how could this be the God who condemned those who gave their children to Molech if he's the God who told his people to murder infants and little children? I still don't have the answers, but my red flags go up when I see such condradictory explanations bout God. :sad:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:00 am 
Offline
E
E
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:41 pm
Posts: 243
Location: DC area, born and raised.
I'm pondering too, LOT... :smile:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:39 am 
Offline
E
E
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm
Posts: 204
Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
These are the pieces:
1. God did not require Blood but something did.
2. Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something
3. What is that something?


Hi Christine (LoT):

I respect the traditional views of others, but this is how I see it – point by point.

1. I agree God never required blood, but the evil nature of man did because of man’s lust of power and control through the agent of fear!

2. Jesus came to correct the Corrupt and Pagan aspects of the Jewish Religious System which included the false tenet of blood sacrifice. Jesus’ life, death and resurrection, confirmed God’s message to mankind and proved that God (His Father and ours) was not angry. Believing Jews (including Paul) interpreted Jesus’ death as the Ultimate Sacrifice (even if it wasn’t) which put an end to the sacrificial system and the idea of an “angry god”. The Gentiles also had the SAME basic concept of their god(s), that is, they required appeasement as well! So, whether Jew or Gentile, all were set free from the dogmas and rituals associated with a “Blood Thirty and Angry God”. Jesus’ Ministry was then, and is now, both Liberating (freeing) and Redemptive (saving)!

3. The “something” is the Evil Nature of Man (the evil spirit within, the darkness, our adversary, the “devil” in us). God Created Man as a living soul (Gen 2:7 ). All men have an inner witness of God the Father (Rom1:19-20). When we ignore or dismiss our God-Consciousness we sin (to him who knows to do good and does it not – to him it is sin: James 4:17). The evil nature of Man lusted after power and control and the best way to do this was to misrepresent the Ultimate Authority in the Universe (Our Heavenly Father) as an angry, capricious and murderous tyrant who demanded blood sacrifice just like all the other pagan gods of ancient times. Man, (the Jewish Priesthood), wrote the scripts, edited the scripts, kept the scripts, read the scripts and interpreted the scripts. The Priesthood WAS the government and also the major source of taxation of the illiterate masses. The Priesthood also ordained the Kings of Israel. The Monarchy and Priesthood were inseparable and so was their lust of power – a potentially boundless source of oppression and slavery!

Enough Heresy for One Night!

In His Boundless Love, John :ht:

_________________
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:57 am 
Offline
F
F
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 9:58 am
Posts: 81
Location: Virginia
[font=Trebuchet]Hi, LOT. :giveflower:

I'm glad to see you've had some responses!
I never want anyone to feel left out but the Lord isn't discussing this topic with me right now, so I haven't responded. I often can feel a topic simmering in my spirit (so to speak) and I can tell that the Lord is speaking to my spirit but I can't quite hear any words yet. Then lo and behold, one day I will speak out those words that have been taught to my spirit! God is so awesome!

:gh:[/font]

_________________
You're welcome to visit my blog at
http://toknowhimmore.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:27 am 
Offline
N
N
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 8:56 am
Posts: 4
Hi LOT,

to me, Christ can be all things to all men - meeting us where we are at. for the Jews coming out of their system, seeing Christ as an ultimate sacrifice was a very necessary part of their faith... it enabled them to break free of their law/sin obsession. i tend to look at us all as having our own 'dark glass' for our time, our culture etc.

in some way i do see Christ as a sacrifice - but from the point of view that he willingly offered himself - that is the sacrifice. there's quite a bit of symbolism that gives Christ's death meaning, but the idea that God needed or demanded blood in any way has become something i just can't believe anymore - if God takes responsibility for this world and its evil, which i believe he does... why on earth would he need appeasing? :mshrug:

not to one-up Brother John's heresy here ( :laugh: :ht: )... buuut, my own view of the cross that has had the most profound effect on me, is seeing the closeness of God in our suffering. showing humanity that God doesn't remove himself from our plight here. ironically, that 'appeased' me, not him. throughout the gospels we see Christ displaying compassion over and over... the cross to me is (partly) a continuation of displaying that compassion.

edit: looking back, i took the atonement belief on-board when i seriously had to face up to the 'reality' of hell... i see the 'appeasement' of God through blood as the lesser-of-two evils... but still, it's no surprise to me that they are so linked - they both deal with an angry, petty god imho.

peace.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:38 pm 
Offline
A
A

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:37 am
Posts: 557
Location: South Africa
Hi all

I have been thinking on the line of all ancient culture's temples - from the pics I have seen they all seemed to have a place for sacrifice. Why would Jesus tell us we are the temples if in any way there was anything in the original temple that represented us as beings and as temples of the most High God. Early days yet but I will share what I discover.

Blessings

_________________
skype: bernie.kruger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:25 pm 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
jfraysse wrote:
Quote:
These are the pieces:
1. God did not require Blood but something did.
2. Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something
3. What is that something?


Hi Christine (LoT):

I respect the traditional views of others, but this is how I see it – point by point.

1. I agree God never required blood, but the evil nature of man did because of man’s lust of power and control through the agent of fear!

2. Jesus came to correct the Corrupt and Pagan aspects of the Jewish Religious System which included the false tenet of blood sacrifice. Jesus’ life, death and resurrection, confirmed God’s message to mankind and proved that God (His Father and ours) was not angry. Believing Jews (including Paul) interpreted Jesus’ death as the Ultimate Sacrifice (even if it wasn’t) which put an end to the sacrificial system and the idea of an “angry god”. The Gentiles also had the SAME basic concept of their god(s), that is, they required appeasement as well! So, whether Jew or Gentile, all were set free from the dogmas and rituals associated with a “Blood Thirty and Angry God”. Jesus’ Ministry was then, and is now, both Liberating (freeing) and Redemptive (saving)!

3. The “something” is the Evil Nature of Man (the evil spirit within, the darkness, our adversary, the “devil” in us). God Created Man as a living soul (Gen 2:7 ). All men have an inner witness of God the Father (Rom1:19-20). When we ignore or dismiss our God-Consciousness we sin (to him who knows to do good and does it not – to him it is sin: James 4:17). The evil nature of Man lusted after power and control and the best way to do this was to misrepresent the Ultimate Authority in the Universe (Our Heavenly Father) as an angry, capricious and murderous tyrant who demanded blood sacrifice just like all the other pagan gods of ancient times. Man, (the Jewish Priesthood), wrote the scripts, edited the scripts, kept the scripts, read the scripts and interpreted the scripts. The Priesthood WAS the government and also the major source of taxation of the illiterate masses. The Priesthood also ordained the Kings of Israel. The Monarchy and Priesthood were inseparable and so was their lust of power – a potentially boundless source of oppression and slavery!

Enough Heresy for One Night!

In His Boundless Love, John :ht:


I think I will just adress you as TFL Heretic #1 :laugh: :laugh:

John,
I see it like you do also
Yet, the one thing I question is # 3
I think there is something "driving that in man". I dont think it is just man. I think there is Spirit or something. THIS IS WHAT I AM PONDERING -

“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”



Look at that scripture! Can you put in there "your evil self" and have it make sense? And these were Jesus words.
I cant ignore it especially since God gave it to me at the same time as he was giving me the pieces.

Is Jesus telling them that their "Evil nature" is their father? And that their evil nature is a murdered and that there is no truth in ourself?

Thoughts?

Signed, TFL Heretic #3 :giveflower:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:27 pm 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
SeekerSA wrote:
Hi all

I have been thinking on the line of all ancient culture's temples - from the pics I have seen they all seemed to have a place for sacrifice. Why would Jesus tell us we are the temples if in any way there was anything in the original temple that represented us as beings and as temples of the most High God. Early days yet but I will share what I discover.

Blessings


Looking forward to what you discover!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:30 pm 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Wonder,

Thanks for sharing :gh:

You are right that Christ is so many things to so many people - its amazing how we all see things so differently, thank God we have come to the place to know that we all dont have to see the same :tu:

Blessings :giveflower:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:59 pm 
Offline
R
R
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 12:21 am
Posts: 18
LOT said:
Quote:
I see it like you do also
Yet, the one thing I question is # 3
I think there is something "driving that in man". I dont think it is just man. I think there is Spirit or something. THIS IS WHAT I AM PONDERING


[font=Comic Sans MS]The Christmas before the one just past, we started to talk about the atonement on Emerging Universalist. We were discussing the different theories of atonement and sacrifice…and one of the members who teaches college level English brought up a theory none of us had ever heard about. The anthropology of the cross….a phrase coined by a French scholar named Rene Girard. I wonder if any of you have heard of him or his work? We talked about it quite a while on EU and then we did a book study on one of his books on The Beautiful Heresy message board. (I See Satan Fall Like Lightening). It was a fairly detailed study…which was lost when the server crashed and along with it all the messages from a year or so. Brian has reopened BH…on a different server…

Anyway…I think .Girard’s theory holds some pieces to the sacrificial puzzle….not all the pieces but quite a few pieces. Let’s see if I can put it in a nutshell….

Human beings are creatures of mimesis. Mimesis is a part of our very being (and mimesis gone awry is what some think happened in the Garden when we fell) It is imitation…and it is necessary for us to imitate others in order to learn to eat, to talk, to conform to the ways of our culture….but more than just modeling our behavior after others, we tend to actually “catch” their desires. We tend to want what others have. The example of this is two kids in a room full of toys. One kid picks up a fairly nondescript toy and suddenly it is the most desirable toy in the whole room…and both kids want the toy. Being a mom and a day care provider when my kids were little, many times, I scolded them saying, “there’s all kinds of other toys!! Play with another toy!!”

So we catch/learn our desires from others and we imitate those close to us…no biggie…until we realize there is not enough for everyone….be itland, power, posessions, food, fame, aclaim, honor….whatever….there is not enough for everyone….and thus mimetic rivalry is born. We covet what our neighbors have and we compete with them for it. We are envious and jealous. With all this rivalry for things in limited supply, especially in ancient cultures, violence erupted…pent up anger, pent up frustration….and the very existance of civilization was threatened when because of these rivalries, society was on the verge of all against all. But then…something magical happened. Girard thinks humankind fell into it by accident….but somehow the all against all banded together and vented their collective rage on one whom they deemed was the cause of all their troubles….and sacrificied them to whatever angry god they worshipped. This usually happened at times of crisis….a sort of safety valve to prevent apocolypse. The scapegoat was usually someone who was borderline….a stranger, a foreigner, a child…a women…someone who would not usually have anyone to defend them. And since this sacrifice brought about peace and goodwill when their collective rage was vented, they attributed magical, sacred qualities to the victim. Since the original event worked a reenactment of the original sacrifice as a sort of stopgate measure to keep violence in check formed many religious rituals.

Another tricky part of this whole process is that, in order for it to work, ancient societies could not realize what was going on. If it was exposed, if they understood it or saw it for what it was, it no longer worked. And Girard, and those who teach Girardian theory believe that a major reason for the Bible is to expose this tendancy in mankind and show it for what it is….

Rereading that I realize I have left a lot out and did not explain it very well. There are many, many writings on the internet that explain this theory. I am going to quote below from a 7 part series on a blog some of you may be familiar with called Experimental Theology.[/font]

Quote:
Girard contends that scapegoating sacrifice emerged in human history as the solution to a very real problem, the management of communal violence. Human societies are like dry kindling, ready, at a moment's notice, to burst into flames of violence. Sacrifice was the cultural innovation that aided humans in managing this violence. Further, the scapegoat united the once divided group. Thus, after the sacrifice of the scapegoat, a violent mob is both pacified and united. This communal catharsis appeared "magical" and, thus, became associated with supernatural power and significance. Over time the scapegoat and the sacrifice became incorporated into the mythic structures of the group's metaphysical worldview. The sacrifice becomes necessary, eternal, and sanctioned by the gods. Heim summarizes:

"The sad good in this bad thing is that it actually works. In the train of the murder the community finds that this sudden war of all against one delivers it from the war of each against all. The sacrifice of one person as a scapegoat discharges the pending acts of retribution between members of the group. It 'clears the air.' The contagion of reciprocal violence is suspended, a circuit breaker has been thrown. The collective violence is reconciling because it reestablishes peace. This benefit seems a startling, even magical result, an outcome much greater than could be expected from a simple mob execution...The one mobbed as the most reprehensible criminal now is revered as the bringer of peace, one with a divine vocation to die and restore order for the people. So the victim becomes a god, memorialized in myth, and the killing becomes a feature of a foreordained plan, a pattern and a model. In the face of future threats, similar response will be required. Rituals of sacrifice originated in this way, tools to fend off social crisis. And in varied forms they are with us still." pp. 43-44

But Girard goes on to note that this "solution" to communal violence--a simple murder--must be, to remain effective, "hidden." Heim continues:

"In other words, in perfectly good faith both the nature of the crisis and the kind of behavior responsible for it are described in mistaken terms. This misunderstanding serves to increase the effectiveness of the sacrificial process. It works more smoothly when we 'know not what we do.' If it were obvious to all that sacrifice was a ploy in the ordinary round of rivalry and violence, a bone thrown to satisfy everyone's lust for revenge, it would be much less effective...Without a canopy of sacred awe and the conviction of unspeakable crimes, suspicions might arise about whether the victim was chosen arbitrarily, about the interests of those who picked the victim." p. 51

Religious myth, therefore, is fundamentally about obfuscation, about hiding a truth. What truth? That human society has been built atop and is still built atop murder:

"Myth is an account of a murder that routinely obscures the fact that it was a murder at all. It describes a collective killing that was completely justified, entirely necessary, divinely approved, and powerfully beneficent." p. 52

All this might seem like an interesting anthropological analysis if Girard did not go on to suggest that this sanctioned scapegoating is still with us. Heim continues:

"If sacrifice was simply failed science, and accomplished nothing, it would have no importance for us now. But it does work, and continues to work, whether the community is question is a clique of middle school girls or a country in the grip of economic collapse...The same scapegoating dynamic is alive in our setting." p. 61.

We can now step back and try to summarize Girard's theory:

1. Sacrifice was a real solution to communal violence.

2. But for that "solution" to work the truth about its mechanics had to be systematically obscured.

3. Religion, via its mythical structure, provided this obfuscation.

4. The obfuscation was this: The voice of the scapegoat, the very personal cries of the one being murdered, had to be silenced. Thus, scapegoats were chosen (and are still chosen) from marginalized groups, powerless people. Further, the murder of the scapegoat must not be seen for what it is (i.e., a murder). It must be a divinely sanctioned "sacrifice."

5. This scapegoating mechanism--rationalized, sanctioned, "religious" violence--still defines the human condition. Our collective Sin is this machinery of violence.

6. Thus, in order to save us, the scapegoating mechanism must be exposed.

But how will this mechanism be exposed for what it is? How will our violence be unmasked? How can we be saved from this blindness and violence?

Here's how. By allowing the scapegoat, for the first time in human history, to speak. To pull aside the religious myth that has hidden the victims from our eyes and hushed those we have killed in the name of God. To hear the voice of the victim. The voice of the scapegoat
.
[/size]

[font=Comic Sans MS]The series can be found at
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.co ... eries.html

And additional information can be found on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Girard

On a site called Preaching Peace
http://www.preachingpeace.org/index.html

The Girardian Lectionary (which is a Girardian take on the scriptures based on the traditional lectionary readings)
http://girardianlectionary.net/

Christine...since you are pondering these things, I urge you to look into this in more depth and at least consider that mimesis turned to rivalry is part of the answer to what is IN MAN that needs sacrifice. As I said, it is not the whole puzzle, but it is a big part of the puzzle. I should add that Girard came upon this theory while researching great literary classics. He was an atheist at the time. He noted that many of the classics involved mimetic rivalry (love triangles etc) and when, in further research, he discovered that the holy Bible was the only sacred writing that exposed this (and that Jesus was the ultimate exposure of mankinds dirty little secret) he returned to Christianity. I hope I've made some sense in this post. I am often reluctant to bring it up because it requires a fairly extensive explanation and sounds almost gimmicky...but I think there are profound truths to be found....and truths that do not end back in antiquity but are very much with us to this day...whether it is two kids fighting over a teddy bear....two adults fighting over a parking spot....or a lover's triangle that leads to murder....or between two countries that both want the same bit of land...mimetic rivalry is very much with us to this day on both an individual scale and a global scale. There is much to be gleaned from this theory. On my blog I wrote a post last year about this time when I clearly saw this in myself. The post is called "Mimesis at WalMart" and can be found at the following URL....
http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/2 ... -mart.html[/font]

Cindi......

_________________
Mercy not Sacrifice


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:08 pm 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Hey Sis,

I am going to read and print out some stuff tonight you wrote down! I appreciate it :hug:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:40 am 
Offline
M
M
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am
Posts: 318
loveroftruth wrote:

I think I will just adress you as TFL Heretic #1 :laugh: :laugh:



Signed, TFL Heretic #3 :giveflower:


Who is TFL heretic #2?

- byron


Last edited by firstborn888 on Sun May 11, 2008 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:41 am 
Offline
F
F

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 3:32 am
Posts: 63
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Christine,

The idea that blood sacrifices are pagan and not of God is identical to the notion that punishing somebody by fire (read: "burn in hell") is also pagan and not of God. Just ask King Nebuchadnezzar, who tried to use that kind of punishment on Shadrach, Mechach, and Abedigo when they wouldn't worship the idol. I agree that vengenance is something man desires and not God. And as humans, we all have that kind of nature. I know, speaking for myself. How I used to love a good vigilante movie. When I was young, I vowed that if I were told I had 6 months to live, I would go on a killing spree, shooting pimps, drug runners, child molesters, muggers, corrupt bosses, and what not. In other words, I would go in style. I still battle that vengenace demon from time to time, and I get in a mood where I want to see people in power get theirs, whether it would be corrupt politicians, mobsters, or anybody who is a job boss, though I'm willing to settle watching it as a movie rather than to have a real-life drama play out. However I have acquired a more tender heart in recent years, but I have a long way to go. Perhaps I should write a drama of my own :mwink:

Anyway, no doubt, we are taught to appreciate vengenance when we are small children. In school, children are given a good dosage of military hero glorification. And we are also taught that God requires blood sacrifices and that God will punish with fire. And this on top of the fact that we are also taught how good God is and that he loves everyone. It most definitely confused me as a child. Why adults find pleasure in confusing little children is beyond me. Or perhaps they are confused themselves.


Chuck


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:35 am 
Quote:
I think there is something "driving that in man". I dont think it is just man. I think there is Spirit or something. THIS IS WHAT I AM PONDERING -

“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”



Look at that scripture! Can you put in there "your evil self" and have it make sense? And these were Jesus words.
I cant ignore it especially since God gave it to me at the same time as he was giving me the pieces.

Is Jesus telling them that their "Evil nature" is their father? And that their evil nature is a murdered and that there is no truth in ourself?

Christine..
you mention..." I dont think its just man. I think theres a spirit or something."

The spirit for mine is the very Nature of the Beast( man) himself , which Paul concludes by saying Man is Enmity against God..Hatred..

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


For Mine I dont just see Christ talking and often chastizing the Pharisees by Just Being Pharisees...It goes beyond that...HE uses them as a PRIME example for the nature of man itself...

The problem lays with ..do we see this nature as an Entity( the devil) being seperate ..OR as discussed before..a part of our very nature


Only throu Christ can this enmity pass


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Christ was Murdered FROM THE Foundation of the WORLD..caused by the nature born within US..The Truth is a WHO WHICH LAYS WITHIN us...Christ Highlighting more spiritual Truth which The Pharisees didnt understand...He is TRUTH ans as the pharisees who denied him..then obviously NO TRUTH could or can be found WITH IN...which is HIM born is US AND US IN HIM....FITS PERFECT FOR MINE...

Blessings
Taffy


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:13 pm 
Offline
E
E
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm
Posts: 204
Location: Richmond, VA
Hi Christine(LoT):

Taffy made some great points! :tu:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that the evil in us is “my evil self” and nothing more. On the contrary, I do see the problem as spiritual indeed, that is, involving Good (Spirit of Christ) and bad (spirit of “man”) agencies.

Before I go on, let me explain something- perhaps another Heresy: It is my opinion that when the Bible denotes “the Devil”, it refers directly to the unregenerated (carnal) spirit and nature of man – not “the old red guy” per se.

God’s Spirit is the restrainer of Evil. Without it, man will degenerate into what I call “demon possession” in one form or another. It can be as bad as complete madness, as damaging as unbridled Lust or as subtle as a deep seated inner pride. This is why we will never be complete without God’s presence in our lives. Jesus, as the son of man, struggled with the (evil) spirit of man in the wilderness, but it was His unique relationship with the Father and His obedience that always caused Him to conquer.

Now referring to John 8:44 – the scripture you were given, it is also helpful to read it in context staring at John 8:31. If we do this, we see that Jesus is talking directly to the religious leaders of the day, so by the time we get to 8:44 Jesus is clearly correcting their self righteousness and their reliance on their traditional religious practices and “Laws”. Therefore, it is my opinion that Jesus was rebuking their carnal nature, in particular, the PRIDE that they felt being the decedents of their father, Abraham.

In the same way that James Madison is called the Father of the Constitution, then “the devil” can be called the Father of all lies and those of us who act out our trust in these self-conceits are thereby his “children”. Calling the religious leaders “the sons of their father, the devil”, was simply an allegorical or proverbial way of pointing out “The Source” of their carnal pride and because of it, their resistance to the Truth.

Legalism, many times, leads to pride – both then and now! :bsad:

In His Love, John :ht:

_________________
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:26 pm 
Offline
M
M

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:50 pm
Posts: 186
Quote:
So we catch/learn our desires from others and we imitate those close to us…no biggie…until we realize there is not enough for everyone….be itland, power, posessions, food, fame, aclaim, honor….whatever….there is not enough for everyone….and thus mimetic rivalry is born. We covet what our neighbors have and we compete with them for it. We are envious and jealous. With all this rivalry for things in limited supply, especially in ancient cultures, violence erupted…pent up anger, pent up frustration….and the very existance of civilization was threatened when because of these rivalries, society was on the verge of all against all. But then…something magical happened. Girard thinks humankind fell into it by accident….but somehow the all against all banded together and vented their collective rage on one whom they deemed was the cause of all their troubles….and sacrificied them to whatever angry god they worshipped. This usually happened at times of crisis….a sort of safety valve to prevent apocolypse. The scapegoat was usually someone who was borderline….a stranger, a foreigner, a child…a women…someone who would not usually have anyone to defend them. And since this sacrifice brought about peace and goodwill when their collective rage was vented, they attributed magical, sacred qualities to the victim. Since the original event worked a reenactment of the original sacrifice as a sort of stopgate measure to keep violence in check formed many religious rituals.


I have read some of the homepage articles Rene has posted and I find his ideas interesting. Could you recommend a good book of his to start with, Cindi? Maybe a study on this would be a good idea.....I certainly want to know more about it.

I wonder if this memisis works when there really is a scapegoat, of sorts. Such as in the town of Skidmore, Missouri where the townspeople killed a man who was a bully. He raped women, stole property, beat his children and wife and made everyone's life miserable. He would get a good lawyer to represent him and be out of jail within a few years and start harassing the people again. Finally the townspeople decided to kill him after he came out of a bar. The townspeople were hiding behind buildings and cars and all fired on him when he exited the bar. He died, of course, and when the police came not one person saw a thing. Of course, the guns were gone by the time police came and no one was charged with this man's murder.

People often say, "Don't take the law into your own hands." But this usually doesn't happen unless the law doesn't take the
law into its hands.

I don't know why I thought of this incident, and how it applies to memesis, but it seems to have a place there, for me anyway. The man was not a scapegoat in the sense that he was innocent. He died to appease the anger of the tosnspeople who really did have a good reason for getting rid of him. The police and judicial system wouldn't or couldn't stop him so the people stopped him. They weren't envious of him, they just wanted peace in their lives and knew it wouldn't happen as long as this man had a free reign of terror.

Just my ramblings, for what it's worth.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WHO IS THE GOD/SPIRIT THAT REQUIRES BLOOD?
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:46 pm 
Offline
E
E
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm
Posts: 215
loveroftruth wrote:
The next pieces came quickly, God speaking to me that the sacrifices in the OT where NOT of Him and not REQUIRED OF HIM, but the enemy.


Observant.

Quote:
Then He brought me to the scriptures that say that Jesus was a RANDSOM and that He came to set people that where “CAPTIVE” free, which means there was something or someone holding them prisoner.


Again, quite observant.

Quote:
Then he had me see the scripture to the Pharisees that said “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Since I don’t think I really believe in a DEVIL (although I do believe in demons) I am starting to see there is “ANOTHER GOD or SPIRIT” and what I believe what the people where captive to was a God called religion (law). I believe that this is the enemy. This is the thing that has required blood from almost every religion.


Are you not contradicting yourself? Would not another god or spirit, be the devil? What is your reasons for not believing in a devil, but believing it to be another god or spirit? Would that again not be called the devil?

Quote:
These are the pieces:
God did not require Blood but something did.
Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something
What is that something?


God did not require Blood, the Law did.
Jesus was actually ransomed and set the captives and prisoners free from the Law.
That something is the Law.

Now my opinion, the Law was established by God, as was everything else in this creation and so this is where the confusion begins, since people start to begin to assign blame. Unfortunately that is exactly what the devil is. He is the one who accuses. In order that any accusation can stand, there must be a law in place which points out the flaw open to accusation. So what is the devil? Since the spiritual things are only understood by the spiritual, many have attributed the devil to be a red-horned pitchfork wielding maniac, or some fallen angel of light who seeks revenge against God because they are not spiritual. to discern it The devil is a spirit, but it is not a singular ethereal being who is like a man; but rather it is a spirit which is like a title or office one assumes when they perform certain things. So who is the Devil? The devil is a spirit of the earth which wanders looking for whom he can devour. His power comes through sin, and sin's power comes through the Law. So the devil can only work in those who are disobedient to the Law, and those who are disobedient are slave to the devil because of sin. That is why the sting of death is sin, and not the sting of sin, death.

Another aspect of this is that blood, although is a symbol of life, is also the symbol of man's separation from God.

These are my opinions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:56 pm 
Offline
R
R
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 12:21 am
Posts: 18
Jenna said:

Quote:
I don't know why I thought of this incident, and how it applies to memesis, but it seems to have a place there, for me anyway. The man was not a scapegoat in the sense that he was innocent. He died to appease the anger of the tosnspeople who really did have a good reason for getting rid of him. The police and judicial system wouldn't or couldn't stop him so the people stopped him. They weren't envious of him, they just wanted peace in their lives and knew it wouldn't happen as long as this man had a free reign of terror.

Just my ramblings, for what it's worth.


Although the scapegoat is often innocent, sometimes he is not entirely innocent...or not as guilty as the mob thinks he is. And the scapegoat is usually not someone that is envied...it is the accumulated anger and frustration from not obtaining other desired objects that is vented on the scapegoat. Rene Girard is a French writer....writes in French so all of his stuff is translated into English. Not an easy read. I have gleaned more from people who write about him and what he's written. We did do a book study on the BH old forum which I just found out is coming back online....you cannot post but you can read the posts. The book was I See Satan Fall Like Lightening and it can be found at the following URL. I can't write any more right now....gotta' run.....but there is definitely something to this theory. As I said....not all the pieces of the puzzle but definitely some of the pieces of the puzzle.

http://euniversalism.forum5.com/viewfor ... iversalism


Cindi.......

_________________
Mercy not Sacrifice


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:28 pm 
Offline
J
J
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:49 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Grenzach-Wyhlen, Germany
I was just reading this paper and thought it speaks about this issue:

Certificates and Sacrifices
Colossians 2:14
Tom Hallas
Field Director, Asia Pacific
YWAM
The road to Alexishafen is paved with broken corral gravel, sometimes. It
winds its way across little creeks, through coconut plantations and beside sago
palm swamps. I lived there about 40 years ago in a shack alongside that road. I
never got to Alexishafen but a story told to me of an incident that took place
previous to my arrival has stayed with me for 37 years.
The podium was filled with all the dignitaries that could and were able to
gather that day. The main event for some – the dedication of the first massive
bamboo and thatch cathedral of the Catholic Church – was over. The senior
Archbishop presided over the ceremonies. The highest official of the
Government, the District Commissioner, was there with all the chiefs and heads
of clans for miles around.
The master of ceremonies was about to bring the official part to a close. The
Archbishop would thank everyone for coming, say the benediction and offer
thanks for the massive feast waiting to be devoured.
Out of the crowd three men advanced towards the front of the podium. They
walked cautiously but quickly. The hush of those who were “in the know”
seemed to quieten the masses. There was a sense that something unscheduled
was about to begin.
The man in the centre could be seen from a good distance to be quite
nervous. The District Commissioner’s sensibilities were alerted to prepare for a
shock.
Suddenly, the man in the centre was laid on his back and held down by the
man on his left. The man on his right produced a large knife previously
concealed. Without hesitation he thrust the knife towards the reclining man’s
throat and opened a deep wound from ear to ear.
Almost robotically having had many an experience of seeing fatal wounds
inflicted by tribal peoples on each other, the District Commissioner was out of his
chair shouting to his driver and, within what seemed to be an instant in time, he
was down that road, where I had lived, speeding towards the Madang District
Hospital. The poor man was confirmed to be dead on arrival. According to the
record after many days of enquiry, it was discovered that the victim was expected
to rise from the dead in three days. He would then lead his people into the
knowledge of how to obtain materialistic goods from the white man’s world.
Cargo cultism still gripped the minds of most of the tribes in the Madang
province. Cargo cultists are preoccupied with materialism. They believe that
everything comes from the spirit world: babies, goods called cargo, knowledge,
life, everything, even the bad things from bad spirits that need to be appeased.
Apparently, the white man had cracked the code on how to obtain the cargo that
was destined for the Madang District villagers. They were sure that all these
goods – houses, cars, trucks, etc—were rightfully theirs, but, through obtaining
some secret power or knowledge, the whites were able to intercept them and
take the cargo for themselves.
They were convinced that it was the white man’s Jesus who had given them
this power and that what was needed was a tribal Jesus. They chose a good
man—one known throughout the clans as a model person, known for his
kindness and goodness according to tribal standards.
This was his tribe’s moment. There had never been a gathering like it before.
It was not likely that such a moment would happen again for a long time. It was
highly unlikely that it would be possible to get the extremely divided tribes’ vote of
confidence about one person again. This was their fullness of time.
It is this last comment in the telling of the story that had stuck with me. The
Fullness of Time.
What constitutes this moment? What criteria were in place to say this about
the coming of Jesus: “In the fullness of time, God brought forth His Son” (Gal
4:4)?
How did those very simple living people with their horrific presuppositions, yet
for them beautifully clear logic, come to the conclusion that this was the gathered
tribes’ “fullness of time”, their moment in history?
“This was a repeat of Jerusalem”, the answer came from the storyteller. All
the political, religious and social systems were fully represented. Similar ducks
all in a row mixed with the mystery and magic of the spirit world.
For the Apostle Paul, the Jerusalem moment was not a mixture of mystery
and magic. To the Apostle, this was a moment when mystery was taken away.
This was an open show (Col 2:15).
I’ve often wondered, why was the first Century AD chosen to be the “Fullness
of Time?”. Why not before? Or later? Perhaps the 21st Century? In Texas
where the death penalty is carried out with an injection—civilized, clean, no
blood, no noise and in private?
Is there some dark side to God that requires the blood, noise and lots of pain?
Do centuries of blood flowing from bulls and goats form a clear enough shadow
of what the Father was to expect of Jesus?
Was the Father waiting for the human race to evolve sufficiently to produce
such a violent civilisation as that of Rome in order to satisfy His blood lust and
huge anger towards sinners?
It could be debated that He may have gotten more satisfaction from the
Chaldeans. One could argue that the Vikings would be excellent candidates as
well.
Jesus prophesied to His disciples that He would be handed over into the
hands of evil men and that they would do with Him as they pleased. The
Chaldeans would have skinned him alive. The Vikings would have dragged him
naked across ice and snow.
I’ve been talking to a friend for over 30 years about the Story of God. I’m
afraid that the first few years of our dialogue were laced with heavy doses of
punitive justice ideas from me. Recently, she blew up in my face. She’s now 83.
“I will never have anything to do with a God who is preoccupied with sin and
blood”.
“Whose sin are you worried about” I asked. “Yours?” Her silence indicated
that my question had been given a response.
“Well”. Said I, “He doesn’t hold your sins against you”. “What?” She had
never heard anything like it before, least of all from me.
I read to her from 2 Cor 5:19: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to
Himself, not counting our sins against us”. “Are you part of the human race” I
asked. “Now don’t take yourself out of the human race either as a special or
hopeless case,” I interjected, before she could answer. “Well, what about all the
blood and guts of those terrible Jewish sacrifices, and that ghastly movie made
by that extremely violent man….what’s his name? ….Gibson”. “What’s that all
about?”
“Good questions” I enthused.
It has always been a point to be clarified for me. What is there in God that
needs to be satisfied? Is this His pre-requisite before forgiveness can be made
available? Didn’t He originate the plan and commit to the processes relating to
reconciliation before there was even a relationship breakdown? The Godhead
decided on the forgiveness plan before humans were created and before they
ever sinned. How can the Originator and Source of forgiveness suddenly have
some huge reservations that can only be taken away by such hideous violence?
That psychological profile could only be assessed as bipolar, extremely
schizophrenic.
Some would offer even a worse explanation…like God planned that humans
would fail so that the only way to relationship with Him was through His
redemptive process that required the satisfaction of His wrath against sinners.
Jesus was to become the Father’s punching bag.
God did actually give us the power to reject Him, but not the permission or
approval. For us to participate in His reality, to enjoy relationship with Him and
live relationally as He does, we had to be designed with the capacity to
voluntarily give our responses of love out of liberty and the depth of our
distinctiveness. The downside of this empowerment is the risk of rebellion and
all its darkness. Without the risk, no freedom, no volunteerism, no love, from us.
The best is that we would be magnificently designed, yet totally pre-programmed
robots. Offering conformity, but not worship with genuine love and affection.
The bad news is that the downside happened. The amazing news is that the
initiators of this wonderful story have given themselves as real participants in the
solution to reconcile us and restore us to fellowship free from condemnation or
accusation.
I said to my friend, “ The Scripture says that those who say that they have no
sin are liars”. “By what standards? She pouted. “By what standards would you
prefer?” I appealed. “Sharia law? ….where you could be stoned if your husband
accuses you of adultery?” “Hindu law? … where you could be drenched in
gasoline and set alight, simply because your husband’s family have judged you
unacceptable and rejection-able?” “Perhaps tribal law is better?....What tribe?
And in what era? The Maya, the Inca, the Sawi? Or maybe by some ancient
tribe that has captured you during a battle?”
“What if we put all the standards together and then bring a judgment against
your behaviour?” “Oh my, aren’t we thrilled that we live in the enlightened and
liberal era of the 21st Century?”
It is not Yahweh who is hungry for blood but the demonically inspired masses
and individuals throughout the centuries who have tried to satisfy their lust for
revenge without fulfillment. The rage continues today. ‘Where are your
accusers?’ Jesus asked the woman caught in adultery. “Neither do I condemn
you”. This, spoken in the face of the law of Moses that clearly identified stoning
as the required punishment according to the accusers.
What about the systems that would investigate and accuse us as well as
individual accusers. What shall we call the record of these accusations? Col.
2:14 (NASV) calls them ‘Certificates’ or the written code with its regulations. The
Romans had them, the Jews had them, and Herod had his, particularly when it
was convenient to condemn somebody. The traffic cops in Australia have them.
What standards came to bear down on Jesus? He was innocent and yet he
was condemned by all their systems. To God, these systems and the civilisation
that existed, are representative of the total of what human penal justice would
demand. I say ‘representative’, not an exact measure, as it is the one who was
condemned that makes this whole act representative.
It is His life, applied as a substitute for us all and a substitute for all that can
be certificated against us that makes this to be the moment that it is.
That is just what it is—a moment in space and time when all converges in to
this life—the One who spoke the worlds into existence and He through whom all
things came into being. This was the time in the mind of the Father, Son and
Spirit, that the gathered assembly of accusers, through the life of His Son, could
become sufficiently representative of what all of humanity could offer as a
standard into which the innocent Son of God be placed to carry the weight of the
total volume of the certificates that could be written against us (Col 2:14). He
bears also the effect of the regulations attached to the certificates.
I asked my friend, “Who could write certificates against you?” God is not
writing any. He is taking the certificates against you upon Himself…. nailing
them to the Cross. They were torn up in His body and are therefore cancelled
out. “He has taken all my certificates?” she asked in amazement. “Yes,” I said,
“that is what it says—all of them”.
It does not matter in which era you live, by what standards you are accused
or even how severe the consequences or the punishment. They have been torn
up.
When the systems could not get better or worse. When they could not be
more united over a single issue. When the Fullness of Time had come and the
issue of the written codes in the hands of our accusers had been settled in the
Cross, God raised Jesus from the dead. So now He can declare us forgiven
without the possibility of some accuser nullifying God’s work of reconciliation.
Oh yes, we still have to face the court of today with their regulations and take
the consequences if accused correctly, but heaven declares us to be forgiven in
Christ.
“What about all the blood?” she asked. The desire for blood is in the heart of
the accusers. God made it quite clear to Abraham His friend that he was not like
the blood-thirsty gods of the nations.
Some required infant or child sacrifice. Yahweh was not demanding sacrifice.
It is a revengeful spirit that demands sacrifice. It is an accusing spirit that
convinces us that a sacrifice is needed. Yahweh is the only one who sacrifices
Himself in order that the accuser has no more power through accusation. He
made an open show of Him triumphing over him through the Cross (Col 2:15).
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not holding our sins
against us and bearing the worst consequences that the most severe
combination of systems in human history could subject us to.
We were dead in our sins. Dead men walking, losing our sense of being.
Becoming non-beings. If we are to be subjected to all the punitive demands of all
of history’s penal codes, then we are undone. But God made us alive together
with Christ and He forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13).
Forgiveness was always in the Father’s heart. Now He can declare it openly
without the possibility of contradiction by any accuser. In the fullness of time He
made an open show of all our accusers and the powers supporting them and He
triumphed over them on our behalf. He tore up the certificates—all of them.
I am convinced that the scene in Alexishafen could have been a whole lot
different had the clans understood that they had already been included and that
Jesus was truly their Christ.
This is the real challenge. How many of us accept that we have been
included in the generosity of His beloved Son? Or are we like the clansmen? Do
we still think that there is another sacrifice to be made?
tomhallas@bigpond.com

You can also read it here:

Certificates And Sacrifices

_________________
Father Judges No One- Jesus Christ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:09 pm 
Offline
A
A
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 373
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Craig said:

Quote:
The devil is a spirit of the earth which wanders looking for whom he can devour. His power comes through sin, and sin's power comes through the Law. So the devil can only work in those who are disobedient to the Law, and those who are disobedient are slave to the devil because of sin. That is why the sting of death is sin, and not the sting of sin, death.


Can you elaborate on this, break it down like you are explaining to a child :tu:
Thanks so much!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:38 am 
Hi Christine.
im sure Craig has his perspective and I hope he shares it...
Quote:

The devil is a spirit of the earth which wanders looking for whom he can devour.


For mine ANYTHING BEING of a spirit which adverse to HIM can be likened to that of the devil\satan....which can work twofold, that of an adverse spirit which works with in us By nature..as an example given by Christ to Peter

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

OR beshown as those who being a set of people which in many cases were those who were the sons of the Father( taking his nature) being the pharisees who at work to Bring Down The Fathers WORK ...Tis faith which Gives us Victory OVER BOTH...

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

Those with an adverse spirit will go about to devour ...see how the word devour interats with other scriptures concerning that of the LAW which was the Ministry of DEATH not LIFE..can there be anything MORE adverse?..notice the WORD BONDAGE

2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


2Cr 11:16 ¶ I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.


2Cr 11:17 That which I speak, I speak [it] not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.


2Cr 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.


2Cr 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye [yourselves] are wise.


2Cr 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour [you], if a man take [of you], if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.



And here Paul yet again dealing with those falling away in Galations...for mine to Devour means to destroy..simply put ..there were those of the circumcision causing such division...CAUSING FAITH TO BE OF NO EFFECT


Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

but RESIST STEADFAST IN THE FAITH....

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.


1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].


1Pe 5:11 To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


As Craig mentioned...The Adversaries POWER comes through Sin which the LAW was its strength...

The Laws Purpose was to show us what WE ARE NOT..not what we THINK we are....Twas the LAW and the fear of it which GAVE POWER to those who sat in Moses seat....
Craig mentioned earlier about the Devil being our accuser....but there also another witness to the fact,Moses Himself stands as OUR ACCUSSER,

Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.


Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.


Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?






1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?


1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.


1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Blessings


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron