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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:34 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Let me clarify.
The God that requires blood, is the Law of Sin and Death.
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Colossians 2:13-15
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
God made a public spectacle of the powers and authorities, triumphing over them by the cross. It was not a public spectacle of Himself, nor triumphing over Himself over the cross.
So who is our adversary? Who is our enemy that stands against us and opposed us?
It is the WRITTEN CODE; it is the LAW of sin and death.
loveroftruth wrote: Craig said: Quote: The devil is a spirit of the earth which wanders looking for whom he can devour. His power comes through sin, and sin's power comes through the Law. So the devil can only work in those who are disobedient to the Law, and those who are disobedient are slave to the devil because of sin. That is why the sting of death is sin, and not the sting of sin, death. Can you elaborate on this, break it down like you are explaining to a child Thanks so much!
So what is the devil?
The devil is a spirit of the earth created in the the beginning when God commanded the Earth to create living creatures (Genesis 1:24). He was evil from the day he was created since he was created outside the truth and therefore does not know it to hold on to the truth. (Genesis 3:1; John 8:44). He accuses us day and night, leading the whole world astray (Job 1:11; 2:5; Zech 3:1; Luke 22:31; 1 Pet 5:8; Rev 12:9-10).
A spirit, is not like a man, it is not necessarily an independent being who has feelings and ideas. The biggest confusion for many is to understand a spirit is not what we have been told and taught. This spirit lives in everything living creature that came from the earth, and it is found in mankind as well. Anyone who operates out of this spirit, are children of the devil. Anything that operates out of this spirit, is also of the devil.
1 John 3:7-8
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
Speaking of anyone, the Serpent of the Sea, is the Leviathon, and it is no coincidence that the word "Levi" is at it's root.
Genesis 49:1, 5-7
Then Jacob called for his sons and said: "Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.
Simeon and Levi [are] brethren! Instruments of violence -- their espousals! Into their secret, come not, O my soul! Unto their assembly be not united, O mine honour; For in their anger they slew a man, And in their self-will eradicated a prince. Cursed is their anger, for it is fierce, And their wrath, for it is sharp; I divide them in Jacob, And I scatter them in Israel.
Now pay attention: Exodus 32
After the 10 commandments were created by God, He to wanted to destroy Israel because they were worshiping a golden calf. Yet, in verse 9-12, Moses knew God was testing him, and after their conversation: "Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened."
Yet, we read:
Exodus 32:19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his [Moses] anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.
Exodus 32:26-28
So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him. Then he said to them, " This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
Look very carefully, it was Moses's anger that burned, while the God in Heaven relented. Moses could only hear the words of God while in the Holy Mountain; so then, who was the one who commanded that each man strap a sword to his side and kill his brother, friend and neighbor? Who now was the Lord, God of Israel? Alas, it was no longer the God of Heaven, but Moses himself. Who became this God's priests? Was it not the Levites?
The secret of who is this God who desires blood becomes clear... who wrote the written code? Who was set in charge of administrating this code?
I have more, but this is just a bit for people to digest.
(In the meantime, see the contrast)
Matthew 5:38-48
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Last edited by StudentoftheWord on Tue May 13, 2008 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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loveroftruth
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:17 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am Posts: 373 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Man, I wish I could totally grasp what your saying Craig because it is TOTALLY confirming in me!
Please continue to share
Are you saying there is a spirit "the devil" and the law came from the devil?
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:58 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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loveroftruth wrote: Man, I wish I could totally grasp what your saying Craig because it is TOTALLY confirming in me! Please continue to share
Are you saying there is a spirit "the devil" and the law came from the devil?
There is a difference between the Law of God, and the Law of Sin and Death. Another problem is to brush all the laws of Scripture into one Law.
I am saying, is the devil is a spirit that opposes God and uses the Law and created laws which separated man from God.
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Anonymous
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:04 pm |
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StudentoftheWord wrote: loveroftruth wrote: Man, I wish I could totally grasp what your saying Craig because it is TOTALLY confirming in me! Please continue to share
Are you saying there is a spirit "the devil" and the law came from the devil? There is a difference between the Law of God, and the Law of Sin and Death. Another problem is to brush all the laws of Scripture into one Law. I am saying, is the devil is a spirit that opposes God and uses the Law and created laws which separated man from God.
This is getting sorta ONE TO ONE,sorry to intr  ude......but if ya wouldnt mind..please expound on what ya said..mes a Dummy and some what lost in what ya stated ...
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Anonymous
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:08 pm |
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Craig care to expond some ....scriptures are fine by me..please excuse me..as Im getting to sense this is a One to one..and NOT discussion
if so No worries...please continue to chatter to ..
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:28 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Thats fine.
The little nuances of Scripture is where we recognize there were in fact other laws that were being obeyed that were not Gods.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?
Acts 22:3
Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.
The exception is the rule:
Matthew 19:8
He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
Mark 10:5
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.
From this we recognize, that Moses had his own laws which he commanded that from the beginning were not this way. Jesus spoke of certain laws as being written by men and not by God; and Paul acknowledges that he was trained not in the Law of God, but in the law of his fathers.
These small nuances demonstrate to me, that not every law written in the Old Testament is a true law of God.
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loveroftruth
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am Posts: 373 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Taffy Wrote:
Quote: This is getting sorta ONE TO ONE,sorry to intr Sad ude......but if ya wouldnt mind..please expound on what ya said..mes a Dummy and some what lost in what ya stated ...
Taffy, I am sorry I have not responded to each post - the best I can do right now is to read it and see if the "nudging is there".
If there is not, I have to come back to it
Everything that has been written on this thread has been incredible insights, each one I have read with open ears!!!! Some, more complicated for me to wrap my hands around.
I learn in a really weird way, like a child almost, it needs to just "Quicken" in me or I just cant seem to get it into me
So keep posting, there are others here too that should be discussing?
Blessings Brother 
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Pneuma
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:53 pm |
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Quote: These are the pieces: God did not require Blood but something did. That would be the carnal understanding of the law that required literal blood. Quote: Jesus actually Ransomed and set Captives and Prisoners Free of something What is that something?
That would be the carnal understanding of the law which is death.
_________________ Don't end life at death when we have a saviour who is the resurrection and the life.
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Pneuma
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:14 am |
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Quote: For mine God did require Blood..its symoblic of the TRU life source..who is Chrst... for mine if we Opt to dismiss the LAW given by Moses to the Isralites..then we can just thnk for ourselves...dangerous path.. Hey bro I agree the blood is symbolic of life for the life is in the blood. For myself I don’t dismiss the LAW given to Moses I just don’t believe it was to be understood by our carnal minds. It is a spiritual law a Paul tells us (the law is spiritual) and therefore must be understood by the spirit. But what happens when that which is spiritual is understood by the carnal mind? Answer: DEATH Thus because the people could not see beyond the vail they took what was spiritual and went about doing things in the natural. For there is a way that seemth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of Death. Quote: First came the shadow then the reality.if we fail to see types and shadows in the Old we will read what we read and take it so... True the shadow came first, but a shadow has no substance of its own it is only a reflection of the reality. Thus proving my point that the LAW was misunderstood by the carnal mind. Quote: God instituted the Law through Moses...hebrews 9 ..pretty clear to me... the ushering in ofthe New meant the spilt blood of the Testator...I cant see the problem... The ushering in of the New meant the DEATH of the testator, I die daily, spiritual not literal. Quote: what was that SOMETHING?
to release those HELD in Bondage(..the law of Moses) Amen and that bondage come by way of understanding the law with our carnal mind which is DEATH. Quote: The law ( religion of its day) indeed is often termed in the spiritual as , slave , bondage , Child , jail, BLIND etc..The law didnt bring Life only death , the ministry of death , twas thse leaders of the day which sat in Moses seat which kept MANY in such Bondage and fear...
Graham the law was ordained unto LIFE, it is a spiritual law, it is only a ministration of death to those under the law.
Just something for you to contemplate bro.
God bless
_________________ Don't end life at death when we have a saviour who is the resurrection and the life.
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:42 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Quote: Hey bro I agree the blood is symbolic of life for the life is in the blood.
It is also symbolic of our separation from God. There was no blood in creation, it was flesh and bone, just in the same way Jesus was raise, flesh and bone. Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God.
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Anonymous
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:50 am |
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loveroftruth wrote: Taffy Wrote: Quote: This is getting sorta ONE TO ONE,sorry to intr Sad ude......but if ya wouldnt mind..please expound on what ya said..mes a Dummy and some what lost in what ya stated ... Taffy, I am sorry I have not responded to each post - the best I can do right now is to read it and see if the "nudging is there". If there is not, I have to come back to it Everything that has been written on this thread has been incredible insights, each one I have read with open ears!!!! Some, more complicated for me to wrap my hands around. I learn in a really weird way, like a child almost, it needs to just "Quicken" in me or I just cant seem to get it into me So keep posting, there are others here too that should be discussing? Blessings Brother 
HI Christine...No worries, just thought I may be intruding what was looking like a one to one..thanks for the time inexplaining 
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Anonymous
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:13 am |
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Hi Pnuema..Good to see you around to Bro..and your addition Scott
Thanks for highlighting the SPIRITUAL aspect of the LAW being Life Not death..AMEN.
Quote: Graham the law was ordained unto LIFE, it is a spiritual law, it is only a ministration of death to those under the law.
Just something for you to contemplate bro.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I concur if we see the Law through a carnal mind then Death is what we see...see it WITH A SPIRITUAL MIND is LIFE and PEACE who Is CHRIST
Indeed Blinded Behind the Veil.still blinded today
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Jhn 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Jhn 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jhn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Blessings Taffy
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Anonymous
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:17 am |
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StudentoftheWord wrote: Thats fine. .
These small nuances demonstrate to me, that not every law written in the Old Testament is a true law of God.
Thanks for sharing craig
Blessings
Taffy
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Lemuel
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Post subject: The Everflowing LIFEblood of Jesus Christ Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:25 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 10:35 pm Posts: 22
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I am beginning to see a lot of names here that look familiar. 
Some of these questions were asked and I have taken them from the other thread on atonement, but I have forgotten who it was that asked them. So please forgive me that, I have retyped this to try to make it understandable and I lost that part of it.
The blood of Jesus ................. certainly focuses on LIFE rather than "death" for LIFE is what swallows UP "death." I will write a few words from what I have been given on this.
Did Jesus really die for our sins?
Absolutely, Jesus was "reduced" from what HE "was" in HEAVEN, came to this earth, made like a man, and OVERCAME HIS Humanity, "laid HIS LIFE that was in HIM from Heaven " d o w n" and showed us that HIS ETERNAL LIFE "could never end", took it back into heaven and explains it to us this way:
NOW HE is back into being the High Priest that He eternally was, is and shall be and HIS bloodLIFE "flows" as a RIVER eternally...... It is pure Spirit, but He "did" die for our sins, for our "misunderstandings" about HIM, did and still does "mar HIS VISAGE more than any man.
It seems to be the "vanity" of mankind to be born into "religion" which serves the creature more than serving the CREATOR that "that" is what we are all trying to unlearn!
Joh 8:21 Then Jesus said again to them, I go away, and you shall seek Me and shall die in your sins.
Where I go, you cannot come. According to Hebrews 9, there are "two" realms, the first being behind the first veil, and the SECOND VAIL having behind "it" the Rod of Arron that budded, the "hidden" manna, etc. What I believe Jesus was saying here about dying in your sins, is staying and dying in that first realm, not overcoming to enter into that second realm that He has prepared, and not believing unto "going" on to perfection, or that Second Realm. It puts it all together for my understanding anyway
. Enoch went there. Elijah went there. John on the Isle of Patmos went there when he saw the Alpha and Omega and heard the voice that was "behind him", and was on his way into where Jesus had entered........so also did Ezekiel who heard the voice "behind him" of a "great rushing" sound, John described it as a voice of many waters, I think, anyway, I believe there is an in-part "divine service" used by God where there is a mixture of man, and God, God Himself even called it a divine service there. . a divine service is even the first realm, Hebrews 9:1 it is called there in Hebrews, and we are told to "enter into" where He is now entered, by the blood..........because if things are done the right way, even the law is holy ........to bring us "to" Christ, not to show us how to do "works" but to bring us "to" HIS Work. His Work of Calvary. Certainly what was the ministration of death was glory by Moses, but not GLORY as compared to the ministration of our High Priest Jesus which only speaks by HIS LIFEflow of blood. To the true tabernacle, NOT pitched by man but by HIM. Almost too glorious to even speak, He is unspeakable and full of GLORY!
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.
1Co 15:3
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God, Even "under the law" Moses cleansed things via "blood" which was a type of the consciousness healing done by Him who entered ONE time into our HOLY Place to cleanse throughly so as to present us unto HIMSELF w/o spot and without wrinkle. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that. ........Hebrews will bear this out, too. But this is talking about the "sacrifices" of bulls and goats, typifying OUR"own" Good works, they are much akin to the blood of bulls and goats . But by ONE Sacrifice of HIMSELF and that's His bloodLIFE flowing to us, for this man in the heavens has somewhat to offer us and it is HIMSELF which He showed us is "laid down" or flowing for us...... .......now that Sacrifice is something He does have to offer us since He was made a Priest after the Order of Melchizedec and is NOT on the earth but ministers to us from the eternal Spirit that He is, and the everflowing BLOOD in the form of LIFE. He has a POWERFUL ministry at the right hand of His Father. Jesus Christ. All, that came before HIM, that is the Spirit, are thieves and robbers and with the sacrifices of our bull and goat blood, in His sight, they are compared to nothing when measured against the HOLY SACRIFICE of His DEAR SON!
All this is done because it is His Work to write in "us" too, the New Covenant. Where there will be "no rememberance" of sins. It is the blood that will wipe that rememberance out of us.
His Word is "forever settled" on this in heaven, and He will "settle" it in us, too. Thy will be done IN EARTH "as" it is in heaven.
Heb 9:26 (for then He must have suffered often since the foundation of the world), but now once in the end of the world He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. When it was said by Jesus that "the things written concerning HIM have an end" it is talking about the END of His suffering on the cross. NOTE: There is "NEVER" GOING TO BE AN END TO "HIS REIGN."
Heb 10:8 Above, when He said, "Sacrifice and offering, and burnt offerings and offering for sin You did not desire, neither did You have pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law), What Jesus Christ had no pleasure in where sacrifes are concerned are "our" sacrifices. He was looking at the ONE that was offered not by the law,
but by LOVE,
and that was HIS OWN Son. So He "is" our sacrifice..........not just His Death, but His resurrected LIFEflow that we hear from God by over and over. His everflowing LIFEblood in the Form of HOLY Ghost is an eternal sacrifice, everflowing til we get it.He is our "continual burnt offering" ......... We are saved by HIS LIFE! We were "reconciled" thru His death.
Notice "reconciled" by His death...........and "saved" thru HIS LIFEflow!
Without HIM, we can do nothing. Without His Lifeflow, we are still in a mess. I know I am.
He showed us that the WAY to the LIFE was thru the death. The death occurs thru the first realm.............and the LIFE comes in the second. We have all been touched by the down payment of the SECOND realm, and to them that look for HIM, He will appear the Second time, not to deal with sin, but w/o sin, unto Salvation.
Did Jesus die to appease an angry God or was His death merely a sign to usher in the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh as Joel prophesied? Peter seemed to make the connection.(Act 2:14-18) We love HIM because He first loved us. Scriptures even in Isa. say "Thou was angry with me, now shall we draw out of the wells of salvation, LIVING Water." Probably, His anger is caused because we keep trying to get Him to accept some bull and goat blood, ha ........ourselves.......but we are not but to be found guilty, the whole world is, under the law, because every knee will bow and confess that it is Jesus Christ who is Lord. And "as" we have borne the image of the earthy, so "shall we" bear the IMAGE of the SECOND who is heavenly, the inner man, even the very Lord from heaven. lst Cor. 15
Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! I BELIEVE THE ABOVE IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE GET 'IN' HIM. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN HAVING CHRIST IN YOU, THE FIRST REALM, AND BEING IN CHRIST. The first Christ IN you, has a HOPE which according to Romans 8 is not realized HOPE til we are "in" HIM. In HIM is no sin. It will have been wiped out. In us, as it is already written so in the heavens. We are believing UNTo what is written about us. THE FIRST REALM IS A HOPE OF GETTING IN THE SECOND. IT IS THE SECOND THAT WHEN HE PUTS US THERE, I HAVE GONE TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, THAT WHERE "I AM" THERE YOU SHALL BE, IT IS THIS PLACE, THAT WILL AND DOES TAKE AWAY OUR SINS. TO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM, HE WILL APPEAR THE SECOND TIME, WITHOUT SIN, UNTO SALVATION. For it is "this PLACE" that is the place of grace and truth. The law came by Moses, but grace and truth by Jesus Christ.
My conclusion is that it certainly does require the everflowing LIFEblood of Jesus to us from the ETERNAL REALM for His City to be foundationally built in us and for us to be a part of that which groweth unto a HOLY temple for the Lord.
I don't know what is happening with my centering and coloring and large printing on here. I keep
previewing this thing and now some of it is typed all caps that "I" didn't type that way, Excuse all
the mess. Sorry. My computer I guess.
Fixed - Bernie
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:35 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Nobody has removed the spiritual understanding of what blood means. Nor is it a carnal understanding of the law that required blood or death.
God has never required blood in Scripture, ever. The Law did.
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Jesus died to purchase all mankind from the law.
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Notice it says "For God" not "From God".
This is so very clear in Scripture. It is NOT a carnal understanding of the law that required literal blood. Jesus LITERALLY died on the cross and LITERALLY shed His blood. It is NOT That would be the carnal understanding of the law which is death. Jesus LITERALLY died on the cross and LITERALLY shed His blood. If this is not true, and just a carnal understanding, then we can conclude Jesus died for nothing since He literally died and shed His blood, unless you deny He came in the flesh and LITERALLY died and LITERALLY shed His blood.
The conclusion is obvious, and anyone who comes in to say otherwise needs more than opinion to even claim that it is a carnal understanding. No, it is not and has never been a carnal understanding, the questions are straightforward and the answers clear as water as found in the Spirit and Scripture. Once again, this does not take away from the spiritual understanding of death and blood, but I do know that it should never have been ever associated as being an carnal understanding since it isn't.
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Pneuma
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:09 pm |
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Quote: What I believe Jesus was saying here about dying in your sins, is staying and dying in that first realm, not overcoming to enter into that second realm that He has prepared, and not believing unto "going" on to perfection, or that Second Realm.

_________________ Don't end life at death when we have a saviour who is the resurrection and the life.
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loveroftruth
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:28 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am Posts: 373 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Quote: God has never required blood in Scripture, ever. The Law did. Quote: Jesus died to purchase all mankind from the law.
Does the law have power? Is it a spirit? PLEASE expain 
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:19 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Quote: Does the law have power? Is it a spirit? PLEASE expain 
I know I am deep, I am trying to simplify it as best as I can.
It is of my opinion and study, that the Law is spiritual, and it is in fact ontologically good.
Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
Romans 7:16
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
Now this takes sometime to see the forest from the tree. The purpose of the Law is good, to show us what sin is and shows us what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, while it shows us what is right and what is wrong, by the same judgment it also separates what is holy and unholy, clean and unclean. A result, those who sin, are separated from that which does not sin. This is not an issue of condemnation (judgment and condemnation are not the same but most usually confuse the two).
Now to make things worse, somewhere, in the heart of man he created more laws, laws that truly are not real laws of sin or right and wrong. All together, these laws appear to serve the same purpose (the purpose of godliness) but with the addition of laws we become blinded to what is actually true and therefore even when we thought we did right, we may have actually done wrong and slaves to that which we do not know.
Colossians 1:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
As a result, since we have submitted to these laws, not only are we separated as sinners because of the Law, we are also now self-condemned and separated by the laws which never should have separated us to begin with. (Notice God's Law does not condemn any, it is we who condemn ourselves because we do not know what is true.)
In the same way, when a person submits to another the one who they submit to has authority over them. The Law and the laws have authority over those whom are under them. It is not an intrusive authority, it just does not save anyone to be under the Law of sin and death since the Law can only show us what sin is. So how is one to be set free from the Law which came only to show what sin was but at the same time as a result separated mankind from God because mankind sins? Like any principality or power, God has set up for His purpose of creation and like all principalities and powers they must all in the end give up everything given to it back to God, even Jesus does this when He offers up His Kingdom to the Father.
Now the Law is absolutely fair in it's judgment. It does not look at the intentions, it looks at the result. Therefore the Law is merciless and will always demand blood for blood. That is what we have been freed from through Jesus Christ.
So in this way, does the Law of a life of it's own, therefore making itself a spirit? It most probably is, since the Law is spiritual and therefore holds attributes similar or relating to the spirit.
Last edited by StudentoftheWord on Wed May 14, 2008 6:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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SSA
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:15 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:37 am Posts: 557 Location: South Africa
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Admin Moderation:
I have modified one post and deleted the posts following. Please let us LATL (Look at the Logo) Does what you post promote or oppose that?
Common guys/gals allow each other to express their POV, maybe where there does appear to be miscommunication, DO NOT quote the poster - that way it should be more conducive to polite discussion.
Blessings to all
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Lemuel
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:07 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 10:35 pm Posts: 22
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Seeker, you are a dream!!! Thank you so much for fixing my post. Now it looks like what I wanted it to.
I really appreciate it, and if you ever want to "move" anything I write, or even delete it, I am not opposed.
If I write on a thread, I am "trying" to join a certain conversation, but my mama used to tell me I ran
"all over the Bible" ha..........from one subject to another.
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:11 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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By the way, LoverofTruth, something you may or may not have recognized, but in the way I have presented you this information I have gathered, those 'other laws' man has created is RELIGION.
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:53 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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I try to make things simple, and it is hard to transfer terminology that is complicated (complicated because of religion, not because it is complicated). So let me rephrase.
In simple terms, the Law is good to separate right from wrong, however it also separates those who did wrong. The law can only measure what the end result is, it cannot measure the heart (or the intentions of a man). Therefore, the Law concludes that all things are fair, and it is merciless in how it deals with things. So life requires life, according to the Law in order for justice to be satisfied.
Now this was all good but somewhere along the line, mankind felt that God's Law was unjust and instead of admitting they are wrong and they began to invent new laws to protect themselves and new rules to justify man to God. This is when the serpent came along and began to plant ideas in the head of mankind tempt mankind to sin even further. The more man justifies himself to God according to the Law and the laws he created, the more sinful he becomes and the more laws and rules he creates to justify himself to God. Now the power of sin is in the law, and the more a person lives according to sin (that is what they do when they try to justify themselves by the law, not that the Law itself is sin.) the more power the devil has over them since he double crosses mankind. The very devil who convinced mankind to sin by breaking the Law, uses that very Law to condemn mankind as sinners!
The answer is was not to enact more laws, but to offer mercy and grace.
Last edited by StudentoftheWord on Thu May 15, 2008 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pierac
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:20 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Good thoughts Craig,
It is complicated to express in modern understandings the changing of Gods word, during my on going studies into Hebraic concepts, I have learned how the Jews went astray while actually trying to do the right thing. I will share a little from my studies...
What went wrong?
Rabbinic literature describes the special discipline which the Pharisees observed: (1) they re-tithed any doubtful fruit or product obtained from a non-Jew; (2) they kept themselves in ritual purity at all times; and (3) they were so cautious not to break even one of the 613 Law of the Torah that they are ranged fences or hedges of protection around each Law.
To make sure that they did not break even one of these Laws by accidents or ignorance, they created a hedge around the Law. It is important to note that these hedges are called traditions in the New Testament. The idea was to establish enough traditions around the Law that an individual would have to break a tradition before he could go all the way to breaking a provision of the law.
Serious problems began to arise when the practice of establishing fences reached such a severe level that the Pharisees began determining a person's orthodoxy by his respect for the fences or tradition rather than the actual Law. Now based on Deuteronomy 17:9, where the priests, Levites, and judges make decisions as to the interpretations of Scripture, they established new laws to fill in what they perceive to be gaps. Issues of life that were not sufficiently covered by the word of God. It was these new Laws called (gezerah) to Jesus and many other Jews objected.
Please note this is not my work, but the study of others! Paul
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:50 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Quote: I have learned how the Jews went astray while actually trying to do the right thing.
Yes! I do not believe it was ever malicious, they were just decieved.
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:52 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Pierac wrote: Good thoughts Craig,
It is complicated to express in modern understandings the changing of Gods word, during my on going studies into Hebraic concepts, I have learned how the Jews went astray while actually trying to do the right thing. I will share a little from my studies...
What went wrong?
Rabbinic literature describes the special discipline which the Pharisees observed: (1) they re-tithed any doubtful fruit or product obtained from a non-Jew; (2) they kept themselves in ritual purity at all times; and (3) they were so cautious not to break even one of the 613 Law of the Torah that they are ranged fences or hedges of protection around each Law.
To make sure that they did not break even one of these Laws by accidents or ignorance, they created a hedge around the Law. It is important to note that these hedges are called traditions in the New Testament. The idea was to establish enough traditions around the Law that an individual would have to break a tradition before he could go all the way to breaking a provision of the law.
Serious problems began to arise when the practice of establishing fences reached such a severe level that the Pharisees began determining a person's orthodoxy by his respect for the fences or tradition rather than the actual Law. Now based on Deuteronomy 17:9, where the priests, Levites, and judges make decisions as to the interpretations of Scripture, they established new laws to fill in what they perceive to be gaps. Issues of life that were not sufficiently covered by the word of God. It was these new Laws called (gezerah) to Jesus and many other Jews objected.
Please note this is not my work, but the study of others! Paul
Thanks Paul. That is exactly what was revealed to me as well (even if it is not your work but the study of others!) you have shed more light on the practice. For me, Religion and Tradition are interchangable in this regard. I did not mean to say that the Jews believed God to be unjust so enacted new laws, I believe as you posted that they thought these 'traditions' protected them from breaking the Law of God but also that since they believed they kept the traditions, they had excuse should they have broken a law. As they began to establish more and more laws, the laws began to take precedent over God and His Law in their lives, even so far as they believed they were being jusified by them before God since by them, they thought they were preserving the Law of God and they could not be condemned should they sin.
To add, we don't need to be under the Mosiac Law, to be slave to laws. We create laws all the time to protect ourselves and society; and now even today we recognize the laws do not free us, but rather bind us.
Many things my dad did as a child innocently and never hurt doing, today is illegal and he can go to jail for. There are things I used used to be able to do that did no harm to noone, but because someone got harmed in doing it, we can nolonger do it. In the USA, after 9/11, we are not allowed even to bring nail clippers on flights! They began putting stop light camera's on street intersections to prevent intersection accidents nailing those who run red lights with hefty fines... ...after two years of study they realized that the stop light camera's actually caused more accidents than prevented because people would stop suddenly to make sure not to get that hefty fine. The more laws we create, the more we find ourselves confined and the more trouble we actually get into; it is just common logic since the things that were legal yesturday are now illegal today while the things that were illegal yesturday remain illegal today. At the rate these laws and rules are going, we will not be able to do anything without committing a crime; even though a majority of the laws mean nothing and do nothing to save anyone.
Now see what is happening in our spiritual lives and apply this understanding and seek the answer to what demands bloodm and from what we are set free from.
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