Hi folks

I have been quiet of late and have been monitoring the USA elections and of course the latest economic downturn. I know some folk may look to me as teacher/scholar/leader - all of which I am not - but I felt led to share these thoughts with you all.

The pacifist - Jesus

One of the issues that has troubled me much this year is the attitude of the typical evangelical's POV that seems to defy the teachings of Jesus who IMO was by far the pacifist extraordinaire. This has surfaced even moreso in the elections as we have all seen and really a recent pastor's prayer at a McCain rally capped the idiocy of this mindset - challenging God to prove His power by defeating Obama. Sadly when folk like this stick both feet in their mouths, not only does that demonstrate poor judgment but calls to question our faith and paints all with this broad brush.

Now I know I cannot influence anyone how to vote but Obama, seems to demonstrate to me more the characteristics that Jesus was all about and yes I know politics is dirty yet this POTUS campaign has been one of the saddest I have seen in a long time - I guess you know who I would vote for was I American.

I was taken to task awhile back this year when on TM I was coming across very "anti-American" yet all I was trying to show was that I was having a dejavu momement after seeing what transpired here in SA. With what is transpiring right now I am saddened to be in a position to say "I told you so."

In a way it is a good thing that happened as now this has dragged the USA into the global village whereas the USA in most part was this veritable island that projected their power and POV on the rest of the world. Had I still believed in a second coming or rapture, the recent events of the past few weeks would give many "parallels" and suppositions of an impending apocalyptic future. The EU is a whole lot tighter, we have a "Muslim" named candidate to the POTUS and if I was as deceived as I once was, I would either be crapping myself or be doing whatever to make sure I got my ticket out of this situation. Well I guess there were similar sentiments back in 1929 and in 1939 yet we are still here.

Well there has been a lot of political spin on many things happening and what I particularly see when the evangelicals swoon over the McCain/Palin ticket really shows the double standards (read:hypocrisy) that exists in the mainstream Christian system. Both these candidates have questionable lifestyles yet they are overlooked but are being called out by Agnostics and Atheists alike. This is a sad day for Christians world-wide when their fundamentals beliefs and philosophies are exposed by the MSM sand non-believers.

So where does that leave us?

We all here basically do not believe in a literal 2nd coming or a rapture so we have a responsibility to stand by folk and show them that we are going to have to work our way through this mayhem.

My aunt has a good saying which comes from the bible ironically "And it came to pass.." which she said in this way, "This too shall pass."

We have come through many downfalls in the past and survived and this too shall pass. It is the principle of reaping and sowing we are now experiencing. If you have gone along with the "system" and the system is failing, you are not isolated. What is there to learn from this?

I am blessed to be debt free and that took many years to get here. Having had it all, the big bucks and the high living, looking back it was all for naught. Hindsight is sadly something that comes far too late for all of us. Well we are where we are and yes we can set goals for ourselves to become victimless to the system.

With all the material things I pursued, now looking back, when I was just married and staying in and apartment with the bare essentials, I was happy or happier back then with a whole lot less than what I have now. I guess that is why Jesus said we should not lay up treasure where moth and rust can destroy but lay up treasures in heaven - makes sense now - to me at least.

So where to from here?

I really dunno. It seems insurmountable but t is not. Possibly we have arrived at a point where the Lord is showing us the futility of our towers of Babel. The way the folks are trying to "fix" the problem - it would appear that the lesson is not quite learned yet. At a high level we see a "system" implementing the system that the Apostles implemented in Acts - close but not quite there yet. America sits with roughly $12Tn in debt and that is shocking, where did the money/wealth go?

Even if we think a war is a waste of money (which it is) the money itself still circulates. The money that buys the gun of the soldier, goes on to pay a salary of the gun maker which goes into the local supermarket to buy food etc. Even buying a "liquid commodity" like a beer, has spin offs in the same way. So where did the money go? That my friend is the right question, unfortunately I do not have the answer.

Yes there are more of us living now so the demand is greater and the wealth should be thinner if spread equally. Yet we have not even begun to exploit the basics of food production potential that exists in the world. The problem is we stopped producing farmers a long time ago.

This supposed fix of nationalizing banks is a stop-gap and will not work (save this post somewhere)

All we have is the first example of doing what Joseph did proactively being done retroactively - will it last or will we learn to horde to fill the barns for the next lean time? Probably not.

On Huffington Post I am monitoring and sharing when led to and one question that came up was where does the money come from for a universal health care system being proposed by B.Obama? Well take your population of 330M and lets say for each person, they spend $1 a day which is not unreasonable = $330M/day. Now multiply that by 365 then take 1c in each dollar spent per person per day. You come away with $1.2Bn. Now extrapolate that by the annual turnover of the USA and there is your universal health care. Sometimes the simplest answer is right there in your face.

I have much more on this topic I can share but you guys fire away.

Blessings

Hi Bernie,

Good post - these times do involve lots of deep questions. My husband and I sit around all the time and talk about "simple" answers and wonder why our politicians can't come up with the same. They are either nuts, or maybe we are? I think the former.

I see the biggest problem in the U.S. is the size of the federal government. For some unknown reason, the people keep giving them more and more "to run" even though they continually screw it up. We give them our tax money so they can give us entitlement programs (which not all are "entitled" to in return). Then they tax those entitlements. They are taxing the dollars that we were required to give them as taxes in the first place. Doesn't anyone see the lunacy in this? And yet we continue to hold up this crazy belief that our federal government will take care of all our problems.

As long as we have only two choices - republican or democrat, this country isn't ever going to change. I refuse to vote for McCain or Obama and I see it as throwing away my vote. I know one of them will be president but at least I can know that my vote didn't help them get there. I will be voting for a third party candidate who believes in small (federal) government.

You are so right when you say that we are learning the "reap what you sow" lesson right now. We here in America have been spoiled, we haven't been good stewards of what we've been given. We've gotten lazy when it comes to taking care of business and making sure the people who work for us - our elected officials - our doing the best job. This is where we find ourselves today - on the brink of bankruptcy and many here want that to happen. Many see it as the only way we are really going to learn this lesson. I sat in a political chat room last week the day the market dropped 800 points and people were saying, "good". They weren't happy about it, they were all loosing money, but they acknowledged that this was the best thing that could happen right now. That's why so many were furious that this bailout passed because we know its just putting a band aid on the problem and that it would only make the eventual fallout that much worse.

Ron Paul talked about this his entire run for the republican nomination. Its too bad he wasn't given a voice -- yet there are people that heard his message of small government and non-interventionism. Those people won't be voting for the two party "status quo" candidates.

Well, I could go on...lol...but I'll close for now. I'm interested to see how many people reply to your though provoking thread.

Peace,
Dawn

its coming down to -do we really trust in God and his kingdom economy ,or not.

I have watched the political this year for the
first time in my life, "because" of what I heard
in the Spirit. God is not "against" us, and
His "promise" is to "shake" everything that
can be shaken ....so that...what can't be
shaken, will "REMAIN." Selah.

During the times of His Shakings, we are
often inspiried to "Come UP hither" for we
are reminded thru these things that the
TRUTH is UP HERE, where things do NOT
Shake!

So I agree with the last poster who said
that about "trusting" God.

Hi Seeker, I have not been following the political process much. As both candidates are poor choices. Our political process has been broken for the past 40+ years. All we are going to get is more of the same. Craig posted a good video last night discussing many of these issues. Yes, it’s mostly new age propaganda but does a good job explaining how our corrupt system works!

Profit and Greed, and no country is immune, as this is why “all” the major world banks are failing at once.



Here is Craig’s link. Showing how American money system works, scary just how insane the system really is.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7695921912

Anyway, I get sick of my stomach, any time I hear any of the candidates speak! I just treat politics like chess, know your player and make your moves accordingly. You can only play defensively, as the game is rigged, and you never win! No one wins! Everyone loses, but to different levels and degrees.



I still need to check my pants every now and then. I am debt free too, I sold most of my personal stocks about two months ago and paid off my house. Taxes prevent me from touching my 401K so I can only watch it erode away. My only bills now are utilities, insurance, taxes and living expenses. I’m now focused on saving before the bottom drops out of the banking system. Adjusting the “chess game” in order to preserve my personal dollar value. This roller coaster ride is far from over, and it will take time to realize the bail out did not work. So 2009 looks to be a interesting year! I have been thinking on ways to helps others when and if it hits, the only problem is it just may be too overwhelming?

The truth is America as we knew it no longer exist. And once personal credit dries up, people will be forced to live like they were meant too. You buy what you need and can afford, not what you want. The I want’s will soon be a lost dream of the past. This in of it’s self is not such a bad thing, the problem is our whole system is based on wants, not needs.

So yes, the real question is when will we be able to say "And it came to pass.."

Paul

Heh. Well, I'd say you don't know much about him if that is your belief! None of the candidates poses any characteristics that Jesus was all about.

If i have to think enything about the economy and give opinions then i will be wrong ,so i dont . I have no idea about what are the causes of all the economical problems ..i am not an economy expert !.I think i know one thing do ...plenty of errors have been made to get things to this place .
about the material:
The main problem with the material is that it is not perfect and when we loose it ,then we suffer alot ,because we use those things in life as a part of our existence .One can overcalm this issue if he understands that in reality there are some cool stuff that he can be happy of and use and evolve ,but even without them he can be still hapy and live, because in reality the heart searches for love and hapynes and security and they are not found simply in the material part of things ,so people should have some faith and hope and God did not leave enyone without hope .
I live in a country where i am not rich . If i work for 12 hours i will get $ 700 a mounth and if i work less ..350$ and our food costs 400$ a mounth . Well..we are not dependent on credits in the banks that much ,because we have capitalism here since not longer than 15 ..20 years . Before 1989 we were a communist country with centralised economy and relied on the Soviet union and the Soviet block economy trades .
I dont know wich will be the best choice for president . Obama i like, because i definetly want something new to replace the old ,because we need lots of fresh thought and the guy seems ok .
I dont know what God is planing next for us . Well i am just a guy and not saint or enything like that ,so i dont know . I have hope and my narrow and small faith. He is love and everything will be alright . I come to think that the so called evil is of no power, or atleast hope ,because i think that power is there where there is good and truth. Plenty of things still make me unhapy ..specialy when i see people suffer . And i dont want enyone to be unhapy . I dont want wars shakings and crazy colapses . I only want the best for everyone and for them to be ok.
I can not relate to God eny apocalipses ,or evils ,or killings ,or whatever as i am not that high to invent mechanisms of God that is love and should be so greater than enything we can imagine .In the future my choice for now is to continue to live and do and work . I want to continue in doing something good for the people even if it is minor . I want also to live free and hope and have faith in good and go on ..Going on too deep i will not ! I think that there is a great song "que sera sera ..whatever will be will be "by Doris is a thing that i think has some truth in it and as i can not predict enything neither do i want to ,so i will not and will not extend too deeply .

excuse me?????


Bernie, as to your post... I will come back later and respond.
peace,
sparrow

Watch out Martin! Now you got your self in the hot seat! I suggest, you just take it like a man and get it over with!





Paul

Sorry Sparrow, not laughing at you or your comments! I'm just laughing at Martins predictment! As, I'm pretty sure Martin would actually agree with you!


EDIT: Sparrow, I think I just made a mistake, I meant to quote you but instead I think I edited your post??? [Mod. power mistake] Luckly, I preserved your writings in "quotes." I'm so Sorry for the mistake!!! Totally my Bad!

Paul

Seeker, I've never seen you as Anti-American... I've always just seen you as "pro-truth".
I would love to vote for an Independent, just to thumb my nose at the establishment and this 2-party system, but I feel it necessary to vote for Obama to try and help avoid McCain being elected.

More and more, I'm drawn to the view that we need to work towards a better future, and educate people and cut out the harmful things and learn to grow the helpful things in this world. Instead of thinking we are just doomed, and helpless. I see a brighter horizon now, than I ever have before, actually. I'm talking not just about the future world, heaven and all that but right here, EARTH. It's like I'm being sucked into the silver linings of these dark clouds and moving further away from the darkness if that makes sense.

I think we need to go back to the basics.

From the book: "Native Wisdom for White Minds"

When the seat gets too hot indicates the possibility one may have sat there too long with nothing new or helpful to say and is time to move along on our journey.

Good post Bernie and points worthy of discussion.

Fire Walker

For the last few months I have been thinking of how to deal with the political happenings out there. People in USA have been put on the terror list just for having a peaceful protest. There is a threat of martial law or is there martial law out there now?? Some of the articles that are out there sends a shiver through my body. I dont think it is even safe to voice an opinion on anything at all anymore. We don’t have the freedom of speech we once had.

My husband and I would talk about what would happen if the worst was to come. There are many many people out there that don’t know the truth. If things turned real ugly those that don’t know would be in total shock and possibly be devastated with the new enviroment. What position could we be in, to be the most help to these people. Warning people of the things going on does not help. They just look at you like you are just another nutcase conspiracy theorist.

We need to think where we can best serve God in this situation. Can we serve God best in the political scene or with the people that will be emotionally devastated. If we are put on the terror list for whatever reason you will then put the people you are trying to help out at risk. We have to each decide where we can help serve God the most.

Love Faith

That makes a ton of sense sparrow. In fact - everything you say makes a ton of sense to me (and I've only ever said that to one other person )

I am not afraid and if I can spread that lack of fear everything will be fine around here. Did you know there is enough wealth in the earth that every single one of it's 6.7 billion inhabitants could be millionaires right now? The problem is CORRUPTION, always has been and always will be if we allow it to continue.

The earth will still yield a harvest when you plant seeds. If that stops working then I'll panic, but not before. I'm one of the ones who should worry because without electricity to help me breathe I wouldn't be here long, but I have hundreds of friends who would try to prevent me from leaving so... no worries.

CONTINUE being generous and looking after the needs of others.

For example, send John's widow money:

Karen and Jonathan McManus,
p.o. box 23,
Corydon, In. 47112.

If we are going to look for a political figure to save us from our fiery trials that try us we are deceived, it is Christ alone that we can trust while here in the fire, nothing I say or do is going to change that.

Personaly I am not affiliated with any political party or religious institution, I don't think that deminishes in anyway the light from above to shine through us as God wills, where he wills us to be a light when he wills us to be a light, there are times we are in need of others and times when others need us because we can't give what we haven't received, what we do receive freely, we can also give freely.

Those of us who have been given much, much is required, those of us who have been given little, little is required, however this world doesn't see it that way, this one size fits all world blindly demands the most from those with the least and the least from those with the most and believes it all to be in common the same.

Fire Walker

Thanks all for sharing your thoughts.

I guess I am liberal by definition but then again we have a liberal govt here in SA who have policies I do not support. We are likely at a crossroads globally to weigh up if capitalism vs. socialism et al. really are the models for society going forward.

Well capitalism seems to have a track record (in my lifetime) that it increases the divide between the have's and the have not's. Socialism in small doses seems to be akin to what happened in Acts - some may even go to say that reeks of communism. Does it?

Well what we have in China and still residual in part in Russia was not really communism per se but a dictatorship styled "capitalism" if you can call it that. We need to rewind a few hundred years and see that we came out of a system of monarchy, and when we take a step back, really what we have is little different to what we had 200 years ago except in this day and age we "elect" our monarchy - or do we really?

We still seem to have the great divide that existed earlier but we the people have the "opportunity" to get above our class paradigm and move up the food chain so to speak. That was not possible in serfdom where if you were born into poverty, you likely died in that same class.

We have to question this from a biblical perspective in that WWJD or as it has been punted recently "Jesus was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor." In the life and times of Jesus we see that he hung out with essentially the have not's of society. He did seem to against the norms that were in place in the society of His day. (I am looking at this from a political/social perspective.)

If we saw the system the Apostles implemented being expanded upon and grown, we likely would have a radically different society today. Our western culture does not seem to have the mechanisms for a "socialistic" society; you do tend to find socialist principles at work in poor societies where there; being of your brother's keeper is more prevalent to the so called middle/poor class where likely most of us find ourselves.

I know little about the "3rd party" candidates as they do not get much air time here in SA. I guess there is appeal for these folk as they do from the little I have seen be more down to earth. However, they would not likely be able to convert the current status quo to something more akin to socialism (Socialism not in the communist context as we know it BTW.)

We have likely all been involved one way or another in cell groups that sort of links back to maybe how they did it back in Jesus' day viz community. My experience is that it is not sustainable yet in Korea, it works. Difference? A more "socialist" type of environment where looking out for one another seems to be par for the course. In reality, western and I guess I can say the American brand of Christianity does not and cannot become a socialist styled community as it exists withing a system that is anti socialist. Even within the church, should you become one that disagrees with the leadership, you are either forcefully ousted or leave on your own accord. I think we have all experienced this to some extent.

Back to policies happening here in SA. We have a housing drive whereby the Govt. builds houses for essentially the poor or have not's. These "townships" are springing up all around SA and providing "decent" accommodation by comparison to their traditional tin-shack shanties. This is all good and well and is very socialist in its drive and likely driven from the perspective of the legacy of the apartheid years where traditionally the have and have not's were divided on racial lines. Now here is what is missing. They are creating housing at the taxpayer's expense but there are little to no drives to create jobs for these folk. The houses are on a 99 year lease so they do contribute a payment albeit marginal. Their utilities are also based on a fixed fee based on that it is unlikely these folk will exceed by average a certain amount.

Now what I am gleaning off by BO's approach is to create jobs and improve infrastructure by increased govt spending. That part is missing here in SA and I guess the "cheap" housing is possibly missing in the USA.

Now in SA, the govt tightened up on credit about 18 months ago and at the same time they increased the prime lending rate to counter inflation which was approaching runaway double digits. Prior to the enforcement of the credit act, every Tom, Dick and Harry were offering credit cards and I guess some folk fell for this. Now to get credit requires a mandatory credit check that is somehow government controlled to some extent. Yes this has hurt the economy and growth but with this fall-out the world has experienced, we seem to be relatively isolated. Other African countries, when you build a house, it is done cash and they take even up to 5 years to complete the construction, the expansion is slower but at the occupation, they are debt free. We likely have a declining population due to AIDS which likely - as hard as it is to say - is assisting the runaway credit crisis.

There are many other important factors and one most important is education. Education is govt regulated but folk still pay school fees and of course there are "free" schools for the disadvantaged.

Nationalization vs. Privatization

Which is better? Well we have seen that neither model works very well when you consider the entire populace. A model somewhere in between seems to be where we should move to and thus we do need government involvement and sadly that means big government. Unlike the USA, we do not get to choose cabinet figures, they are appointed so in essence we have very much an "old boys" club, you vote the party and seats are divided by percentages.

Probably what works here in SA is that the socialist side is taken care of by the government and the capitalist side is run by big business. The govt. does interfere in part by AA appointment targets and BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) model for the "informal" to small business sector when dealing with parastatel and semi-parastatel organizations.

Usually ones economic model can be measured by the crime rate and here in SA crime is high and particularly organized crime.

In many ways, what happened/happens here in SA is a microcosm of that in the USA and in recent years we seem to be a step or two ahead of the USA so it is very interesting to see what is happening there.

14 years after legitimate independence, we are still not quite there but we do seem to be wondering in the right direction. Race hate is still alive and well but most folk have come to accept the reality that whites will never again be in charge.

Now with the potential of a first "black" POTUS, I can understand the apprehension of many but believe me we had it too. Our blessing was having a prisoner of 27 years coming out and uniting the country when he became president. Just maybe, changing the status quo of the past 200 years in the USA, having a "black" POTUS will lead to new hope and a turn around globally for tolerance and possibly hope for world peace at last.

Maybe I am just dreaming.

As someone who really does not have a dog in this race, what I see in BO is a freshness and newness and the hope for real change. When I look at McC, I still see what we had 15 years ago here in SA. The great thing is that he BO is a lawyer and BTW, Mandela was also a lawyer whereas the outgoing white President was a Dutch Reformed Church Pastor. Ironic no?

When one looks at places like Zimbabwe, we fear the worst in black leadership but that is the exception to the norm. They say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that is true world wide.

The answers exist, we need to be brave to explore and discover them. When we get past "I'm alright Jack and bugger the rest" mindset, just maybe we shall find that which we have been looking for.

Change is inevitable - Resistance is futile.

Am I my brother's keeper?

Cain

Blessings

Great comments, its nice to see everyone around

I believe our system is so corrupt and that both parties are basically in the same hands. So, why vote? I wont.

I dont think americans realize how "good they have had it" with all the excess of money they have grown up with and never to see a hungry day. My son did an interview with my mom the other day for a project and he interviewed her about her childhood living through WWII in Germany...... she had very little food, they lived many times in bomb shelters and in fear.....
If you ask any older person, they would have a story to tell about"real" struggle.... we have no idea about those things... waking up to fear for our lives, war, famine, poverty, hunger.......

So, in essence we are very spoiled.... In my life I have learned the greatest lessons and have grown the most through the hard times.........

I dont think this is God, I believe it is the natural order of "reap what you sow" ... and so it is, gread gread gread can not go forever....

I was talking yesterday with a friend about Bush and how he has probably NEVER EVER had a situation where he had to wonder how he was going to get money to pay a bill --- NEVER........ How can we expect him to relate to us??? The same with other politicians, they mostly all come from rich families and have never had to live as we do - how can they relate?

Anyways - thats my babble for the day

I really like what everyone's thoughts are on these political issues, except for the Sarah Palin comment. As time is winding down and D-Day is approaching, I am wondering sometimes if I will even vote. When all of the bailout drama began, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I mean, I don't feel like I was a person to put all of my trust in the government to make my life better, but I was trusting that SOMEBODY would handle their business like they were supposed to. I am probably going to vote just so someone can't tell me ' If you didn't vote then you don't have the right to complain'. I have zero trust in the workings of the government now. I put my trust in God.

The US economy is built on its “Perceived Strengthen” and has absolutely nothing to do with its actual wealth. In 1973, the US went off the Gold Standard and much of the World followed suit. While Gold is, also, only as valuable as it is perceived to be, it is ,nevertheless, a real and tangible asset that most, if not all, of the World used to recognize. Having the value of our dollar based on Gold or any universally recognized standard is what stabilizes and also restrains our “greed” and limits the over extension of credit. Unfortunately, Governments, especially the US government, can now simply print money to “pay” for whatever it wants. This works as long as the world has “faith” in our currency.

What we are dealing with at present is a time of uncertainty based on the outrageous spending habits of our Government and BOTH political parties are to blame as well as individual Americans – me included! You might like blaming everything on “Bush”, and he is supposed to provide “leadership”, but Congress approves those budgets!

We beat the Russians to the Moon and ended the Apollo Program in 1972. The next great National Goal should have been Energy Independence. This seemed obvious to me then but here we are 36 years later and still no one is listening. The 1973 Gas Shortage was a perfect wakeup call, but none of the politicians had the gonads to do anything then and I’m not sure they are any more potent now. Here are a few actions that I think would help:

1. Make National Energy Independence our #1 Goal
2. Get out of Iraq ASAP.
3. Go back on some kind of momentary standard
4. Give up on our apparent mission of Evangelical Democracy and Capitalism – Instead feed, cloth and protect the abused, war torn and down trodden without any strings attached - No “Gospel Catches” and No “Democracy Catches”. We must learn to Give without thoughts of Getting and drop our role as the ostensible exporter of “virtue”.
5. Stop trying to “Help God Fulfill Prophecy”. Religions divide us into “Clubs” and can cause conflicts and wars. If a “scared text” is, indeed, a true Prophecy, I’m sure God can handle it Himself.

In His Love, John

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John,

Yes all you posted here is very much the picture of many years.

Especialy found it refreshing to see these things in quote above that you wrote that points out much of the problem, blaming it all on Bush is so shallow, as you say congress and Senate must vote on these things before they are put into action.

During the depression of the late twenties and the nineteen thirty years most people at the time blamed it all on President Hoover, yet he was only in office a very short time before the depression hit big time, any one who can add 2 + 2 =4 can see that Hoover inherited the mess as soon as he steped into office, a mess created by others in congress/ senate and the white house administration before him and maybe clear back into several administrations before his time.

What you say about the political/religious evangilizing is very well said also, I don't know where anyone can believe that we should force feed stero type cookie cutter democracy and relegion down any ones throat domesticaly let alone abroad in our nieghbors Nations
where is there any hope or liberty offered in any of this forceful pre-emptive behaviour that the US industrial military complex and our evangelizing almost cultish like religious extremism via forceful tactics using guilt, fear and anger to control anyone, where do these religious folks find that we are told to do so wickedly in the bible?
I have never seen anything good come out of spreading
such deception and misery with the exception folks get fed up with such treatment from these blind hypocrites and search for the truth that is behind it all. Most of us here have learned to trust in grace and leave vengance to God when it comes to such things and still able to discuss these things with an open mind and that is a good that we can be thankful for as all glory goes to God .

Fire Walker

Hey FW:

I agree.

Personally, and I think it is also a good National Attitude, we (I) need to give thanks everyday for at lest one Blessing and strive to live thankful lives before our Creator and Heavenly Father. Somehow, we ( I ) must also learn that doing the right thing is its own reward - right now, as we are lead - in this life – not expecting a “reward” in heaven nor coerced by the threat of punishment in hell. Our Father looks at our Hearts! And a Pure Heart would solve many, if not all, of the problems we have been having – both personally and nationally.

Guess Sparrow and I are dreamers, aye? (You GO, Sparrow! )

Great suggestion, Byron – Thanks for the McManus’s address!

In His Love, John

Hey John, nice to see you back here again.

Not much from my side today but I did get up early to watch the debate and have been following the spin masters, I am guessing MSNBC have some good viewing for me tonight. Unfortunately we only get it between from 23h00 onwards on a satellite channel that uses this as a filler when they are not broadcasting. Other times I have to watch CNN and that which we see this side of the pond is not the same as in the USA.

There have been some good thoughts shared here and I am sure there will be more as we approach the elections and see the world markets see-saw in the coming days.

In the past I have been very critical of the USA blase attitude maybe not so much here but on other boards and after being hurting from the mismanagement of the USA Wall street which we are somehow very reactive to, was wanting folk to taste the real world we outside the USA feel. I do not mean this in a negative way and most of you folk here and on TM were/are realistic and many saw it coming too.

Like I mentioned in my earlier post, this situation has now dragged (can I quote a bible verse? LoL) into the global realm of things and we now somehow see in spite of this mess how interdependent we are on one another?

I believe that once we are through this mess the stage is set for a more global realignment leading to peace and prosperity which has been missing since WWII.

Man are we slow learners?

Just like 9/11 was an event that united the world in your loss and pain, unfortunately, that goodwill was vented off in anger and led to an unnecessary war and likely the root cause of increased oil prices which of course led onto price hikes in many other things. The outrage toward the USA has existed for sometime now but many knew that it would not change until YOU the people stood up to make a difference.

It may seem very harsh in the way this is coming across but remember here in SA we were pressured and ridiculed because of our apartheid system and we just went about our daily lives until we too saw we were heading full speed into a brick wall w/o brakes. Let us put the USA in perspective from a global standpoint.

Although you only constitute 5% of the global population, in English speaking countries, we see you on display via CNN and other news channels. Like I have said before, in SA we have >75% American programming as far as TV content goes. We know little of Spain, Argentina etc. apart from what we may see via the same news channels. Now in retrospect, how much does the average USA citizen really know about the world at large unless they go on the internet? I do not mean this in a condescending way at all.

With that in mind, you may understand why I was so frustrated in my warning and at a time was being sarcastic even in the spelling of Amerika.

Well that is all behind us now and I do think we all have had a huge wake up call. There is something about America that makes it great and many take their lead from you folk. That is an awesome responsibility and there is no one who can replace that measure of influence YET. There are emerging economies but it is unlikely that either China or India will be able to fulfill that role. Even a united states of Africa will have decades of in house cleaning to do before they can become a force to be reckoned with.

Even if the USA completely collapses, the world will still look to the USA for leadership. For some reason, that is the role you are stuck with.

The way I see it.

Moving forward from this mess, we will no longer be independent but rather interdependent and I do see that as we have been blogging here and other sites, getting to know each other better. It does appear that these relationships will need to be deeper than a mere common belief system. Just like the future of the USA is to be one of bipartisanship, we too need to throw away our religious paradigms and reach out to other faiths. It does sound Unitarian but if we really step back a bit, what choice is there? Surely, we are past the days of crusades as John pointed out and we need to find the common denominator in humankind. From our perspective, it seems to be Christian values but take another step back and look at Jesus. He was not One that would dismiss others even though we have accounts of Him saying "It is not lawful to give bread to the dogs" yet we have the Samaritan who Jesus used in a profound parable just to show them religious folk up. So IMHO, Jesus was not religious or racist and just maybe now we are at a crossroad to change the world, NOT to the way we want it but rather to the way the Father wants it.

As believers in UR we are already miles ahead of many other folk. I cannot increase my faith by apologetics anymore as that is how I feel. Trying to convince a non believer has the same effect - they say actions speak louder than words. It is easy to look after our own, but I guess we need to acknowledge what Jesus said when He said, "We shall always have the poor with us" NOT as a par for the course feel-good theology but rather as something we need to do something about practically.

When I look at the current situation in the USA and hoping for a Dem win, in BO, in spite of what I know or do not know of him, I see a Joseph nature and we all know too well how that story played out.

There is a fundie board called Rapture Ready (others call them rapture retards) and it is amazing to see how they are spinning the current events and how Obama is the Antichrist. There is a site called fstdt.com that mock these folk daily but before you go there, the language is gratuitous in swear words. What saddens me is that behind the facade of hate there are hurting folk either side. Maybe the run of the mill religion is NOT the way to reconciliation?

We have discussed at length reconciliation to the Father yet we cannot reconcile man to man. Maybe this is where the manifestation of sons come in, not by being B-A or speaking in tongues et al. but getting down to the basics, just like Jesus did.

IF there is a 2nd return of Christ, maybe it will be ushered in not through apocalyptic means but rather by unison of mankind and mutual respect.

Possibly the age we are moving into, is going to be a whole lot different to what we have been used to - I am guessing that some Atheists may have a head start on many of us. Sounds weird? Well possibly they have gone too far but who know, religion is what most have dissed and sometimes we can take a page out of their book and visa versa. They do seem open to UR in tolerance as we are on a journey out of the various whores we were associated to more so than the mainstream.

Who knows?

Am I my brother's keeper? (Cain)

Blessings

PS sorry for these long posts.

Seeker, no need to apologize, you are sharing your real feelings in love. I am feeling what you are saying, so you speak on brotha!
I agree with you that the majority of us Americans needed a dose of reality. God is showing us what really truly matters.

Hi GIJane, thanks for the encouragement.

Skeletons in the closet.

With the latest debacle of Joe the Plumber we see even he too has skeletons and it is amazing just how "exposed" he has become. They say those in glass houses should not throw stones.

Dig up the dirt on your "enemy" and hope he does not reciprocate. It seems Joe Biden is the only one so far that seems "squeaky clean." Still 3 weeks so we shall see.

This actually reminds me of the prodigal son and look at how the father reacted in spite of his questionable lifestyle. What we see happening on both sides of the divide is the nature if the the other son crying foul yet even he was pretty screwed up. So what I see is that everyone is being judged according to the standard of the other son. It really goes to show the true nature of the beast within.

I think the be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect now has a new meaning to me now. We all know He is love and His forgiveness is unconditional contrary to the mainstream spin. For a country that claims to be 80% Christian, these elections sure have not demonstrated it by what I read online. The GOP talking heads I see on TV sure seem very uniformed (read:dumb) or really are spinning the truth so much that they lie out of both sided of their mouths with teeth clenched.

A side note why I am anti GOP is because of the Iraq war which has affected me personally in increased fuel pricing leading to increases in all other commodities.

If we take the Bill Ayres issue, we hear he is unrepentant said he wished he had done more and was just unfortunate these comments came out on the same day of the 9/11 attacks. I understand that he was pardoned by Bill Clinton hence a presidential pardon means that all is forgiven. Whether or not you agree with that or not is besides the point. Would the Father pardon him?

Likewise McCain seems to have a shady past too and thus in the political campaign the mudslinging goes on unabated till eventually you no longer can tell the difference between the warring factions. The lesson is "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" The only one that can lay claim to that honor did not cast the stones either.

So the sad years began for Jacob. He was slain on every side and dispersed among the idolaters. They brought harm to him time and time again. Sometimes the wicked murdered him in the name of his Anointed One, the One who came to save him. Jacob's heart became even harder toward his God and he developed his religion to a mixture of blasphemy and truth.

Oh how far you have fallen Oh Jacob (read:USA)!

Not the quote I was looking for but it will do.

Do we redress the past or do we forgive?

I have been blessed to be in a country that had a Truth and Reconciliation mission led by Bishop Desmond Tutu, which brought victims and perpetrators of both sides of the divide together to face each other. We are talking about heinous crimes such as murder and torture perpetrated by both sides. The then commissioner of police, humbled himself and went and washed the feet of one of the black people he offended. Were they reconciled? I do not know but at least it is a start. For many closure was achieved and was amazing to witness the power of forgiveness.

I hear folk crying out for the blood of Bush but that will merely be an eye for an eye and as hard as it seems, he too needs forgiveness 490 times a day.

What we really see is just how bigoted we all are if left to the basest of nature of man. This is eating of the tree of death NOT life. Maybe we are having a dejavu moment of Eve when she partook of the tree of KoG&E. I have shared on my blog that we should not dwell on it or IOW not even go there, maybe that is what she meant by saying not to even touch it.

The Todd Bentley debacle exposed the mainstream in many ways and now this election has exposed more. I shared earlier this year of a shaking taking place and that it was going to continue - I do not think we have seen the end YET.

Putting your shoulder to the plow and not looking back.

If we look back what danger is there? Well I do not think that scripture relates to looking back and learning from our mistakes - it is more about moving forward. We need to till the earth why? To break up the crust and to allow NEW SEED the opportunity to take root in soft soil. Casting new seed on unprepared solid, crusty, hardened soil results in the birds eating them up or being exposed to the elements that are not conducive to growth. What is also means is that we should break "new ground" and not dwell on the past. Bells cannot be unrung, water does not flow upstream under the bridge (tides excluded)

A mirror is being held up to our faces. The first question is, dare we look at the reflection? The second is what are we going to do about what we see?


Am I my bother's keeper? (Cain)

Blessings

That really makes me smile, Byron. and laugh...because I scroll through threads and as soon as I see that pic of you and your granddaughter, I immediately stop scrolling..."hmmm. what's my buddy Byron have to say about all of this?" lol... I always look for your posts. heehee.





It seems that there is a feeling that has crept into my soul. The feeling that y'know.. it all starts with us. As individuals. I used to actually hope for and look forward to some event that would just wipe us all out once and for all, some end of the world... so we could just get out of here and all go home. But now, I'm seeing this earth as possibly a stairway to heaven, in a sense. Bear with me now...

Evil (man's nature, man's vanity) has to be exhausted. Once it's exhausted, once evil is exhausted...then there is no where else to go but up. Perhaps all who are born, once they die.... wherever they are on the timeline of this present world, they will instantly see the Past all the way to the Future and the "end" of this world. The "End" of this world is a line that is blurred, fading right into the "NEW" world. Because mankind will have (with God's help) worked their way back to God. That is why the "end" blurs right into the beginning of the "new earth" or "heaven" or what have you, because the end isn't horrible destruction....it's beautiful life! Each generation plays a part... whether it's the furthering of the state of madness and evil, or if it's the climb back up to godliness. We all play a role. We're all stepping stones of destiny.

Hope and optimism are beautiful things.
I have hope, now.
and not despair and a longing for destruction.
A longing to go home, yes... ALWAYS. I always long to go home...
But we're on a journey. And we have to do our part to hope, have optimism and spread as much peace and love as we possibly can while we're here. Because you don't know if YOUR generation is the generation that starts the beautiful and amazing climb back UP to godliness.

Just some thoughts.... just some things to ponder... I'm not sure why God created such a wandering and wondering brain in my little peanut-sized head. Sometimes I wonder if he chuckles. at me. with me? I'm not sure... lol.

peace.