In the last couple of months I began to be repulsed by the thought of animal slaughter. I have been the biggest fried chicken consumer on the planet. I go to all you can eat buffets and eat all beef, chicken and fish ect.

I have an internet acquaintance - a guy overseas whose speech resonates with me quite a bit and one day he simply told me "Your living under the curse, your part of the problem. Slaughter is not in the Kingdom"

I really gave it little thought as this guy often says things way off the beaten path - but I couldn't shake this feeling that he was right.

Finally, two weeks ago I woke up and said "no more suffering and slaughter paid for by me". The idea was - if I am not willing to go out and kill and bleed out and gut the animal myself then I have no business eating it.

Today I joined a veggie forum to get some dietary ideas (I was really REALLY craving chicken) and there I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

And I must say - I was absolutely horrified! No more cravings. I know this stuff is worst case and many humane practices are enforced by law (I hope) but sheeeesh folks! What are we thinking? Here is a recent undercover vid:

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/turkey_investigation

These things have never bothered me much. I shoot guns, have hunted deer and dove and wild pigs etc, and even though it's not really 'my thing' like it was for my Dad and Grandfather - it never was a big deal.

And yes, I know - I KNOW what the bible says about this, but guess what? (you guessed it )

Thoughts?

Low bandwidth so I did not watch.

I have been to abattoirs and the process although icky, was humane.

We were given domain and just as carnivores hunt and eat meat, we now breed for purpose to do away with the hunt.

But then again one wonders why the burnt offerings was a sweet smelling thing to God or was that just man salivating at the BBQ smell?

I have never really had an issue with this personally.

i used to work in a processing plant.i couldnt stand the stench of the visculation part(where the innards get sucked out).so i got moved to packaging area this was better
while there i couldnt look at chicken to eat it,it repulsed me;but after i left there the desire came back.
i guess most of us live in denial everything tastes better that way

Well actualy we might have problems with eating vegetables and fruit too if we knew about some of the
processing and careless things that take place, I have read some articles written by a few people who worked in these corporate comercial places that do canned vegetables and fruit and some of it was sickening.

So I guess buying meat or vegetables and fruit at the retail level in stores and resturants would be the same as buying meat to eat wihout the hunting involved, or vegetables that we didn't plant or harvest in our gardens.

Looking back at religious food laws in history we can find where people were actualy put to death in some cases for eating unlawful foods.

Peace,
Fire Walker

But I'm talking about animal suffering, not what's good or bad for humans

Doesn't the whole creation groan though? including animals, birds, fish and all thngs that creep, insects and all plants domestic and wild? Plants, trees and ect? While mankind can suffer at the hands of our fellow man or from the sometimes extreme physical elements and laws of nature, we groan. and the rest of creation groans.

Can we truthfuly say that trees and plants can't suffer from abuse by man or from nature as much as the animals,birds, fish and all things that creep suffer? Life in this world is chucked full of suffering? That is how I personly see the whole creation groaning and not willingly.

Fire Walker

Hi FW,

My point is concerning us humans inflicting (avoidable) pain and suffering upon conscious living creatures - complete with nerve endings and cries of pain. Did you watch the vids? And this is all done simply to satisfy our appetites for flesh.

I cannot be another's conscience but at a minimum I would urge all of us enlightened ones, at the very least to not support modern 'farming' methods which inflict fierce cruelty on our fellow creatures.

Byron

The syestem we use doesn't do vidios, we are on the web TV system with a keyboard, it's limited in many ways,
we get still pictures , and audio and of course written messages of information, wish we did have a way of watching these vidios because without this feature all I can respond to is what I receive of the vidio information via other folks replies on the subject who have watched the vidios.

In this particular case of animal suffering in my POV it is probably close to what Burnie has replied, we trust that laws are put in place that would bring these places to be humane as all possible, outside of that the only other thing I can think of is close them all down and then the question remains to where from there? because that seems so much in the letter to me and yes like you I have ate my share of meat that I would feel like a big hypocrite to say lets close all these places down weather they are humane or not because of a few.

During past times I often wondered if a forty day fasting and prayer in the wilderness would usher the whole world into the kingdom, now I ponder: this is the work that God is doing within us, completed only after we have suffered to the point that we are brought to Godly sorrow that WORKS repentance NOT TO BE repented of? Personaly I am led to see it in the latter and not in the former because the former appears to be of the letter while the latter is not of us, it is Gods work within us, the spirit.

Peace,
Fire Walker

I hear ya' bro, and I know I am not your conscience OR the Holy Spirit so I just share and see what catches on. I don't eat them anymore and so one less cow and probably 1000 less chickens will be consumed this year. It's seems like a drop in the bucket but ya' know a big rain storm is just a bunch of little drops.

My POV is enough suffering. I believe all this has happened for a reason but the cry of the prophets through the ages has been to stop oppression, to heal, to bind up so there's really no justification for not doing absolutely everything within our power. Faith without works is dead. Again, from my POV

Daily life gets SO BUSY but my conscience and my daughter keep this stuff on the front burner somehow. Eventually more and more of us will be pulled into activism concerning all the things we all agree on. It's like I hear of what someone is doing and am reminded of things I've desired to be involved in for years (but have put off) and I am pulled into to their vision (no need to re-invent the wheel) and try to cast out fishing lines out there to see who bites!

Originally, upon my 'conversion' back in '77 I had a dream (literal night/sleep dream) and saw the earth absolutely transformed through and through - a "new heavens and new earth" so to speak. I had no clue what the nuts and bolts were though until more recently. I had to get out of religion altogether to start making a difference and STOP seeing many who are making a difference as 'secular humanists' ect.

So I am praying and organizing a 3 pronged attack as follows:

1. Justice for humanity (breaking oppression here in the US and abroad: anti-poverty, anti-slavery movement)
2. Justice for women in particular (recognition of equality, value, education)
3. Justice for non-human creatures (stop cruelty to animals)

I want input from friends. I see my role as a conscience awakener - not a 'nag' but someone who brings ideas up which awakens the conscience in various humans on a variety of different subjects.

Everyone has their role in this - where ever your area of concern is, that is the salt of the earth which you are.

So, when you have time (make time!) send me a couple of ideas on EFFECTIVE CHANGE for the world. I'm not out to re-invent the wheel, I know their are already organizations in place who need our help.

It seems like everyone wants pretty much the same thing, but with unity there is power.

blessings,
- B

That sounds like Free-Will through the Absolute Sovereignty of God. Believe it or not, every one who believes in UR believes in the Absolute Sovereignty of God. Are you sure you believe in the doctrine of determinism through the Absolute Sovereignty of God? Because if you do, all you said above is irrelevant. I am not against the Absolute Sovereignty of God, I am against the hyper-sovereignty pre-deterministic doctrine which says God created injustice, poverty, slavery, etc and is not the result of the wickedness and godlessness of man by the their own will, which God created man with the ability to do.



Are you sure you don't believe in Free-will? Because if you don't, then it matters not of any ideas to effective change for world, because that is how God created it. You can't change a thing, and no idea you have will matter because if God wanted it changed, it would be changed and since it isn't then God's Sovereignty says it isn't.

Are you sure you believe in the doctrine where you have no freedom of will?

I just frustrated with seeing 'Sovereignty' people deny their responsibility and accountability to the things they do. It is good that you are doing what you are doing and that you know we can make a change in this world.

Well Byron,

Yes we can make changes to better ways of humane practices and relationships with our fellow man than what has been in the world until now that I do not argue, at the same time we can't do the work of the spirit in another human being, we can plant a seed or deliver the message we are given to deliver yet until the spirit moves them what we say remains just so many words
to them, many of the things that I now see today I did not see 45 or 50 years ago.

We quit using pesticides some years ago because of the very reason you are talking about, I witnessed what squirming and agany insects go through before they die after having used pesticides the last time, and not only that I saw birds that eat bugs eating some of the bugs I had sprayed and then bang it all hit me, I was moved so deeply by all this that I couldn't bring myself to ever use pesticides again, granted they are vegetable eating insects but they are still living creatures and the birds also that eat them, that is a natural balance of nature, using pesticides is destructive to that balance.

Now as far as commercial corporations that practice these things on a massively large production scale as you have mentioned or what I have mentioned, remember that only a few folks at the top end are making the real profits from that business, the owners, managers, etc, it is their responsibility to see to it that cruel or hazardous practices don't take place, they are the ones who have to do these things,, so we vote for measures that put laws in place to assure humane practices are abided by, how else are we supposed to handle it? We can't physicaly go out there and do what is another man or womens job to do.

We are not all moved to work in the same area either when it comes to oppression, I have been sending what I can to humanitarian aid to aleveate the suffering in the Gaza strip since the government of Israel has shut it all down it is a living hell for 1.5 million men, women, children and elderly, Israel tore it up with catipiller cats, army tanks and plain Jewish settler vandilism to Palistanian property, in fact I also send a little money to the poorer Jewish in Israel proper, a humitarian fund that is for food for the children there, I am not taking sides with either Palastinians or Israelies I see it all with a single eye and that is through the lense of Gods love for all of us. Here again though no one can force peace on them, the Israelies and Palastinians are going to have to do the work of making peace, we can't do it for them, all we can do is send humanitarian aid and prayers, that is what we see and what we CAN do in any area we are moved and drawn to work in, ministering is a multi member body with many countless areas to serve where we are gifted! And then of course you know as well as I do that there are always those who are less fortunate than You or I that are right here in front of us and we always have that spirit of compassion than moves us to help where we can., remember we are human vessels though and we need to work in rest and not in frustration, competition, or when extremely preplexed or we soon burn out, like an old saying goes: This world is enough to wear out even the strongest amoung men.

Peace,
Fire Walker,

Good post FW. We all have our part in this massive task but God has ordained the time for awakening from darkness/oppression. I saw a special once on oppressed Palestinian Christians. It was quite a different angle than the standard right wing stuff.

It's all about ideas - different thinking = different world. It's important to understand that all things are possible.

Byron

I was reading a book on Anger by Thic Hahn and he has a part on how we really are what we eat. That what we eat affects not just our bodies but our emotions, our minds.

He talks about how animals we eat need to be freerange and fed and tended properly. He shares about how many farmers raise chickens. How they are full of anger, sadness and how this affects us when we eat them.

We cannot prove this perhaps but it is worth thinking and praying about.

I too was moved when I watched the special on KFC on television not long ago. Most cities now have healthy markets where you can buy freerange meats. I will pay even more attention now.

blessings

GodisLove

Hi Craig! Good to see you here again. Right now (in my old age?) my conscience is just ignited to break oppression. I do believe at this point that the awakening of empathy is the work of God ie: "Remember those who are bound as though bound with them"

I guess if I believed that all that is happening here is just about human choice (I know you're not saying that) and that God will not sovereignly intervene and transform the world by His power I would just go jump off a cliff somewhere

Hi Byron.. just wanted you to know that your posts about vegetarianism was very helpful to me. Over the years, I tried cutting out meat as much as I could. Well, it's been on my conscience a lot the last month or two. Being one who loves animals, you would think that I wouldn't EAT THEM! but I grew up eating meat and it was normal.

Anyway... after my pup died (well he was 13, not a pup) it just affected me in such a huge way. The love I had for him just became ten-fold when he left. God nudged me and I believe he showed me that I will be reunited with him and that all creation groans. And all of creation will be restored.

I read this thread awhile back (didn't visit the links, though and I just still can't do it. I've seen a lot of bad stuff already.) anyway, this thread has floated in and out of my mind a lot. I was very touched by your words.

I haven't eaten any meat at all since my dog died. The "all creation groans" just kept playing like a record player in my mind. It's been over a month. I feel pretty well set now. While it may be a small thing, I do feel so much better. Like... I'm helping remove a small bit of suffering in this world, somehow.

And I feel I can look at my animal friends with a little less guilt.



I truly do believe that all creation will be restored.
And I do not believe there will be any "eating of flesh" in paradise.
so why not stop now?
Help ease some of the suffering in this world...
Everyone can do a little something.
Even cutting out one TYPE of meat...
if you can't cut it out altogether, maybe just try to do whatever you can do.
Well, I guess, God puts different things in our hearts.
He put this in my heart.

Thank you again Byron, for the inspiration. I truly appreciate it.
And the animal friends thank you, too...
The demand has gone down a bit and therefore you just helped ease the suffering of a lot more animals.

peace...

,
sparrow

Thanks Sparrow - you made my day

Well, I've made several attempts to go veggie over the past 10 years, but it seems I'm a hopeless carnivore. (I'm battling high cholestrol, which runs in my family)

However, just because I love meat doesn't mean I deny animals the right to be treated ethically. There's a Mexican restaurant about 3 blocks from my apartment that prides themselves in serving only organically raised vegetables and meats (and they pride themselves in treating the animals with the most sensitive ethics, claiming that they even outdo PETA).

I won't however eat meat that came from an animal that suffered. But then again there are some die-hard carnivores that suggest that even veggies have rights. Ever hear the song by Arrogant Worms called "Carrot Juice is Murder"? In that song one of the lines goes: "I heard the screams of the vegetables", and another goes "I'll go to jail just to save one more cauliflower!"

Consdier cats. They cannot live without meat. Their enzymes and digestive systems just plain cannot handle vegetables. But consider the verse that says that "the lion will eat straw". It's going to have to take a miracle from God to get to that point, for both the cat, and perhaps myself.

Incidently I had fried trout for dinner last night


Chuck

Hey Chuck.. You're proof that we can all do what we can do to ease the suffering.
I just bought regular ol' grocery store meat and didn't think too much about where it came from...even though I KNEW. I put it out of my mind.
I appreciate your effort, my friend.

I am now 55 years old, but, when I was in my late teens I gave up meat for a year. I ate a lot of yogurt and pasta meals. One day I had a Big Mac attack and started eating meat again.

I have tried to give up meat over the years, but, I'm like Chuck, a hopeless carnivore. Besides, my family won't give it up and I'm the main cook around here so, unless I can get them to give it up, I probably never will. I don't require much meat, but I find if I don't eat it on a regular basis I get tired easily. Must be the protein I need.

Byron, I do make veggie dishes from a cookbook called "The Essential Vegetarian" and the dishes are tasty and very colorful. I found my copy at a yard sale but I see them on Amazon for a cheap price.

When I read in the Bible about how animals were slaughtered it seems so much more humane than the way they are treated by these chicken, turkey, beff mills where it's all about money and who cares if animals suffer. I honestly couldn't watch that film, Byron. Maybe if I'm ready to give up meat I will watch it and it might help me to quit meat. I don't know. I've read Robbins book and he has pictures and it didn't stop me. Maybe if the price goes high enough we will all become veggie....beans at 50 cents a lb. or beef at 4 dollars a lb. A lot more bang for your buck in the beans.

Yeah, it's weird huh. All those years and I knew and didn't care. Now *boom* a light comes on and all those folks I heckled make more sense.

Honestly though, some of those PITA folks are off the deep end. Animals are not equal to humans

But really - the whole thing - leaving the church then beginning to fight human oppression (in more practical ways) and then having this happen...
wild.

I don't know if I mentioned it here but I recently discovered that the same man who moved the world against slavery (William Wilberforce) also founded the first animal rights organization in history.

I would recommend the movie "Amazing Grace" to any who haven't seen it. Amazing true story of W.W.
http://www.amazinggracemovie.com/

Do vegetarians eat fish, eggs or dairy products such as cheese, or are there differant types of vegetarian diets?

Personaly and especialy in view of all the actual hunger from lack of good distribution of food in the world where there are those in need I could do with rice and beans for a long long time and be thankful for that in way of diet,
In fact when we (my immediate Family) had little to do with during WW11 we lived on garden vegetables that we planted and rice and beans for long stretches of time
and was thankful for having that much..

Jesus took the loaves and fishes and fed the multitudes
gathered there, it isn't recorded in scripture that he ever rebuked any man for catching and eating fish, some of his disciples worked as fisherman.

Think of all the things we have and do now in this mortal life here in this world that isn't needed in the kingdom of Heaven. banks, storehouses, funeral parlors, wars of oppresion and destruction, prisons, mental institutions, hospitals political corruption, corruptionn in the Justice system, slaughter houses, morgues, and we won't need cemetaries, automobile insurance or cars for that matter,fire insurance, RELIGION, TAXES or any need for MONEY either which scripture calls filthy lecure, or the need to toil by the sweat of the brow for the days bread/ salt and many other things too numerous to list., Many people work in these places that won't have any need to when all things are completed, I believe there is work of a joyous kind though which we get joyful glimpses of doing, even doing here while in this world that we are not of,, just not the kind of toil that has to do with the sustaining mortal bodies here in the system of this world as we have known it.

After Jesus ressurection he could eat but he didn't have to eat, so it shall be for us in the finish, there is no mortal body to sustain and just maybe that is why we are told that coming out of the oldness of the flesh (letter) and into serving in the newness of spirit is a transition worked by God that we are coming into daily, so we are to love our fellow man around us, and even our enemies which Jesus said are of our own household.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Hi there FW.

Eating fish would make someone a non-vegetarian as that is animal flesh. Some 'vegetarians' do eat animal by-products like eggs and cheese etc.

I am what they call "vegan" which means consuming no meat OR animal by-products and also extends to any killing or causing animals to suffer for our benefit, such as the use of their skin for shoes/cloths/car seats or products developed through animal testing.

wow, Byron... that is AWESOME.
thank you for being you.
and thank you for making a difference.
you continue to be an inspiration.
and I mean that.

I'm vegetarian, but not vegan... (yet) who knows what the future will bring.

Byron,,
Any updates on your Vegan lifestyle?
Its weird..been thinking about it lately. Been on a low carb way of eating for a longtime and the thought of meat is making me sick.

My son just today while walking throught the grocery store meat section said "Mom, do you think God wants us to eat animals, This is after I was reading a book this weekend talking about how bad meat is for us.

He always seems to have that "word" that coomes from nowhere!

So - give me an update- the good and bad

Really no downside LOT. SO much energy.

It's a little hard to gauge health when you've got health issues but dang - we poured concrete by hand until 4am the other night. I was throwin' around the 90 pound bags. I feel great!!!

Okay, just remembered - their IS a downside. Since my daughter lost 40 or so pounds I'm having to hire armed guards to fend off the fellas. That's straining my budget a bit.