Ok, this is the time where I wish I had more wisdom, and maybe my lack will show here, but I have a sensing I am going by - here it is.

I see many speak of a time where God will bring "restitution of all things" and we say that ultimately God will "RESTORE OR RECONCILE ALL THINGS" and thus, now does not matter.

Every time I hear about a "future restoration" I get a nudge... I am hoping you all who are more Biblically versed can help.

I see and sense it as ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN restored already. This took place in ad 70. Where the old replaced the new.

There is a whole movement or doctrine based on this scripture "the restitution of all things" as a future event. I see it as finished. Jesus RESTORED that which was lost, that which was in bondage, that which was dead.....

Where am I wrong??

Below are the scriptures to review


to reconcile all things unto Himself." (Colossians 1:16-20)


Colossians 1
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

"...in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ..."
(Ephesians 1:10)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both F1 which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who F2 is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



the restitution of all things... ..." (Acts 3:20-21)

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, F14 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' F15 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold F16 these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' F17 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

"...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses..." (II Corinthians 5:19)

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christine,
Everything is made right, right now. Only the eyes of flesh can prevent us from seeing that. The instant that our physical hearts stop beating there will be no more questions about what is restored. The nudging you get is an elbow in eternity wanting to relay the comfort of it to you now.

blessings,
- Byron

It just hit me how this thread goes along with others you'd started.

Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation".

If memory serves me (and I'm sure it does) the Greek word used here for "reformation" means "to thoroughly straighten". So, everything is fixed. The only battle is seeing the truth. There is no other battle.

blessings,
- Byron

Am I wrong that most people are looking at it as a "future" event?

That's right. Even those who know it's finished still look for a future event because we want an earthly kingdom AND we want out of this clay stuff.

blessings,

- Byron

I understand it as something that was, and is and is to come. All things restored then, now, and still yet to happen.

Came across this comment on another forum



This is what I am speaking about - there is a whole doctrine based on the comment above.......

Does it make a BIG difference if this is an "ALREADY" accomplished thing vs. us waiting for it?

Are we are ALL reconciled to HIM - everything He has created are HIS?

We seem to "excuse the NOW" because of the verse above... we say "now doesn't matter because eventually God will reconcile all"

I know I could be wrong in this, but I "sense" that this is one of those things that is not represented correctly. If I am incorrect, please please, show me where I can not be correct... this I desire.

Laren, where are you? Have any comments?

Thoughts anyone?[i]

Here are a few thoughts:



– Redemption Reconciliation –
&
Salvation
A Fulfilled Grace Perspective


We were… we are… we shall be saved [Rom 5:9-10; 8:24; 1Cor 15:2]; and …lift up your heads, for your redemption draws nigh [Lk 21:28]; "…God, who has reconciled us to Himself…" [2Cor 5:18]. These expressions – 'redemption, reconciliation and salvation' although indelibly linked and often appearing as interchangeable terms in Scripture, are not always saying the one or same thing, especially so when it comes to defining the contexts between that which is temporal and that which eternal. There are important and significant differences between them, and some crossover of thought does occur where salvation or saved are used in the global sense – properly referring to 'redemption-reconciliation' as in reflecting the essence of Divine deliverance from sin [Mt 1:21; Lk 1:77]. "Redemption" however literally means to be bought back – this is what God has done in Christ; similarly "reconciliation" where He paid a price in ransoming and thus reconciling the world back to himself [Mt 20:28; Mk 10:45; 1Tim 2:6]. "Salvation" in comparison, is to be brought into – an experience which those who through belief in God through Christ appropriated i.e., they enter into through faith.

To further clarify this distinction that can be between redemption-reconciliation and salvation, consider the following. Specifically we can see Paul defining these differing aspects of God's grace at work:

Rom 5:10a For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son…

Christ's Cross – His death, redeemed-reconciled Israel-humanity corporately back to God [Isa 53:11; Col 1:20-22].

Redemption-Reconciliation enables us to find the Way of Salvation, that being Christ alone – this is the work of divine grace and is not the result of our "believing". If our believing could produce our redemption-reconciliation then Jesus died in vain. However, redemption-reconciliation on the other hand CAN produce belief; the working of repentance in turning mind and heart in thankfulness to God – thus bringing confidence before God and so deliverance in life – salvation of the soul, i.e., of the inner man. Or as Paul goes onto say:

Rom 5:10b …much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ's Resurrection – His life, brought and brings salvation to those who will grasp it, individually.

Salvation as just stated "of the inner man" on the other hand, is the realisation or revelation of mind and heart that knows I am loved and accepted by God – that knows all are loved and accepted by Him. The work then of salvation is that of assurance – the confidence in knowing that I have been restored unto favour with God – accepted in the Beloved [Eph 1:6]. This knowledge of acceptance or, assurance, is what multiplies grace and peace and works divine growth, grace and transformation [2Pt 1:2-4].

There is another aspect of salvation as found in the contextual setting of the New Testament that must also be acknowledged – that of the literal flight of the first-fruit saints out of Palestine before and during the Jewish-Roman wars; specifically culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in their generation. The root meaning of the word "salvation" is to deliver – this in the "this generation" [Mt 24:34] time-frame, particularly the calamities of AD 66-70 had a very temporal outworking for those who heeded Christ's words to flee. Salvation then, is not always something that is restricted to the "spiritual" sphere of operation.

Having said that however; the covenantal overtones of being redeemed-reconciled means that, covenantally, there can be a personal salvation occurring in the heart of a believer that is working deliverance from toxic life patterns i.e., those things that work foster and occupy temporal pain in our lives:

Hang-ups [toxic thinking] Hurts [toxic emotions] Habits [toxic behaviour] – Head-Heart-Hands; one invariably follows the other in actions and consequences.

Again, it is the embracing of this assurance that grasps the reality of redemption-reconciliation that can then work personal deliverance. Without Christ one cannot fully know the associated blessings of forgiveness – that does not mean we have not been forgiven, we have [Jn 1:29; 1Jn 2:2], it simply means that without Christ we cannot know it i.e., we cannot grasp the reality of our forgiveness. Peter indicates similar:

Act 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

The word here translated "receive" [labein – λαβειν] means to grasp, and is in the active voice – meaning that the subject [the believer, not God] produces the action – cf. Mt 21:34; Heb 10:26. In other words: believing or having faith in Christ enables one to grasp a hold of the actuality of forgiveness – to seize with certainty the remission of sins, i.e., coming into the reality of Christ's redeeming-reconciling work of "…not imputing their trespasses to them…" [2Cor 5:19b].

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace…

Col 1:14 …in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

The apostle Luke further demonstrates the dual nature of God's grace at work:

Lk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation [deliverance] to His people by the remission of their sins [redemption – forgiveness]…

The end result of this is knowing peace with God. It becomes our heart's assurance that redemption is ours – the promise secure, and this is what "saves" the soul:

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise [epangelia – επαγγελια = assurance] by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Borrowing a couple of paragraphs from the article Fulfilled Grace:

The biblical term "salvation" is as broad an expression as one can find in relation to the ministration of God's grace; however the turns of phrase to be saved or being saved must be understood as being descriptive of the subject to which it is being applied; and as explained above there are a number of different biblical aspects to what being saved means. Pertaining to REDEMPTION everyone IS saved, having been delivered from sin's offence – adjudged so by God i.e., reconciled. Likewise, just as humanity was not involved in the imputation of guilt through Adam's sin – adjudged so by God, so man was not involved with his redemption-reconciliation either, that was between God and Christ – man however was the recipient of it, the beneficiary.

Thus there was established through the Cross of Christ a broad all encompassing unilateral and universal deliverance [Heb 9:26] – what we call salvation; it brought redemption-reconciliation TO the whole world – collectively. This redemptive and reconciling act of God in turn has the potential of bringing a personal deliverance – again, what we call salvation, to those OF the world – individually. Thus humanity truly IS already saved objectively [de jure – in principle, in law] and "in Christ" collectively, yet when one comes into a personal revelation of Christ's meritorious grace this salvation truly works subjectively [de facto – in reality] an apprehension, acceptance, appropriation and application of Christ's saving work, individually – and THIS IS the assurance of salvation.

Just as the promise is there for all who will grasp it in faith [Act 10:43], there remains yet no less the promise to those who either in ignorance or arrogance do not or will not grasp it – it is true however that in this life they will be less for not having apprehended it. Yet as the apostle Paul said:

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all…

Gal 4:25-26 …for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The 'father of faith' and 'the mother of us all' extends to more than just the seed that acknowledge or confess their linage. The truth is, there are many who through lack of knowledge wander aimlessly [Prov 29:18] through life, bogged down in an identity crisis – it is this message of Gospel i.e., the revelation of God's righteousness [Rom 1:17] that will dispel and dismiss this veil of ignorance, for God is the loving father of us all [Psa 24:1; Act 17:29].

Rom 3:3-4a For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!

Rom 11:32-33 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

To summarise: In spite of the similarities, there are differences between how and through whom these three biblical themes all work out:

The force of biblical REDEMPTION is towards Israel – microcosmic.

The focus of biblical RECONCILIATION is towards humanity – macrocosmic.

The fullness of biblical SALVATION is upon those called to minister – God's change agents in a changing world; those who are saved to serve.


and a shorter article here


SALVATION: What It Means –



There are a number of different biblical notions to the term "salvation" as found in the Scriptures. In its most basic sense "salvation" simply means deliverance. This specific term "salvation" is best understood when viewed in relation to the given situation in which it is applicable. Thus its applied meaning is interchangeable according to these given situations.

Temporal Salvation:

Firstly there is a physical salvation, being individual or corporate – as seen in the temporal and corporeal deliverance out of harms way [Mt 8:25; Lk 23:39]. If someone were to rescue you out of harm's way it would be said that you have been "saved". This is exactly what Jesus meant when he said: "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Mt 24:13 – Jesus was talking about the literal deliverance [salvation] that would be theirs in the forth coming "Roman rampage" that occurred in AD70, IF they changed their minds [repented] and believed and thus heeded his words; just as he gave further instruction here:

Lk 13:3-5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Redemptive Salvation:

Next there is redemptive salvation, which is inclusive of all – where the forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation, i.e., restoration [Rom 11:15, 26-27; 2Cor 5:19; Eph 1:7; Col 1:13-14]. Again, "salvation" is not just redemption itself, though redemption is a salvation, but from what? Redemption saves us from the separating power of the sin condition through the unilateral atonement of Christ – "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Jn 1:29. The only part humanity played in this redemptive salvation was the sin that made it necessary.

Transformative Salvation:

Then there comes a transformative salvation, individually – where the Word and Spirit bring the freedom of change – what is called sanctification [Jas 1:21; 2Pet 1:3-4; Psa 19:7]. Having your mind renewed to this redemption is a salvation. Going through a constant transformation of understanding truth brings a salvation. When you go from believing something untrue to believing something that is true it delivers and transforms us. So what we believe can work a salvation, but it is a salvation in the renewing of the mind, which in consequence saves the soul. It does this by changing the way we view God, ourselves and others, bringing the realisation that God is at peace with us and has no wrath towards us.

Again, it is a misapplication of truth to say that "salvation" singularly ONLY means or refers to redemption. The various references above show where salvation is qualified as to its specific meaning; again, according to its applicable context. Many show that a personal commitment to seeking truth will bring with it a salvation in a changed mindset. However, the salvation that wrought man's redemption had nothing to do with man's mindset i.e., what he believes – that alone was Christ's redemptive work.

Then along with all these are those many Bible passages where the Greek text emphasises and encompasses all of the above respectively in either physical, spiritual or relational healing [saving] that God's restorative and mercy filled deliverance brings [Mk 6:56; Lk 7:50; Jas 5:15].

Now taking into account these biblically defined salvific expressions, we can say that based on the redemptive salvation of the world through Christ, all indeed in that sense are saved, yet as to actually knowing and realising this wonderful redemption personally, then no, in that sense all are not saved. Yet the more we grow in Christ's grace, then the more sanctifying deliverance [salvation] we experience from the toxicities of life. Knowing then that ALL are indeed redeemed, but that there is also a salvation to be enjoyed IN THIS LIFE in relationship with Christ gives "believers" an incredibly relevant message to share.

Thus in a nutshell we have:

Temporal Salvation = the escape [deliverance] out of harm's way.

Redemptive Salvation = the forgiveness [deliverance] of sins.

Transformative Salvation = the sanctification [deliverance] in the inner life.




and a bit more detail here:







http://pantelism.com/SALVATIONWhatItMeans.htm

http://pantelism.com/RedemptionReconcil ... vation.htm

Good stuff laren

I agree with everything…. I knew you would pull through
I guess where this doctrine really comes into picture is with those with a strong "absolute soverngty" view. Its used in a sense to ignore or explain away the bad stuff of today for the "restoration of tomorrow" does anyone know what I mean?
So, if my daughter got murdered today, I should just be able to look at "the restoration of all things of tomorrow" and say "its good" because in the end God planned it?

I don’t want to bring up the "Sovernty" thing here , but I don’t know how to explain what I am asking without using the example

I wouldn't say you 'should' be able to look at "the restoration of all things of tomorrow" and say "its good", but after the grieving process you could possibly say that if you knew deep down everything would ultimately be Okay.



...and you KEEP bringing it up which tells me the subject is bugging you :-)

Some of us have been in sovereignty discussions before which got out of hand, but I do believe it's a very important subject to understand. I have learned however that certain things cannot be force feed no matter how clear cut they are to me.

Like I said on another thread, we must each come to grips with the fact that if God is all powerful and all knowing then ultimately the buck must stop with Him. We can discuss freewill till kingdom come, but in the end if God knew the outcome and yet proceeded with His plan of creation then He bears the responsibility for the results because no one else is worthy to.

blessings,
- Byron

Agreed


Yup, your right. I see it as a core issue that touches every part of ones doctrine. I have been in the belief on all sides one side becoming a very dark side... I dont know why if bothers me, but it does

That being said - I would rather not discuss that subject as it bares no fruit, but the reason it was brought up is that it is at the "core" of a future "restoration of all things"...........

How do people view it? Is the restoration of all things" something we will experience on earth? In eons and eons? in ages to come? or is it NOW? Yes it can be all, yet there is a whole doctrinal belief held by many and I would love to hear from them?

Let me try and bring the question back - to those who see this

What does that look like? What does that mean? Is this on earth or in the afterlife?

Here are some thoughts. I tend to approach (at least at this time in my walk) from a fulfilled view point/preteristic. But it leaves some questions unanswered to me. I put this out for discussion purposes.

Here are my thoughts, coming from a fulfilled viewpoint;

at the time of the apostles, believers were given faith in Christ, and experienced peace, joy and righteousness; which was confirmed when "that which is perfect has come" (which in my opinion occurred at the fall of Jersusalem AD70). They experienced eternal life, to "know Him".

Those who were hardened, who were destroyed; died in their sins, seeing there "house" come tumbling down. IMO, they had a very quick, desruction come upon them that resulted in "every knee will bow, and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord", and thus were saved through fire. And hence all Israel was saved.

Today, I see a few that come to peace and joy via faith in the finished work of Christ, and experience "eternal life" now. But for those many out there that don't experience this, what will be their destruction?? What is their swift "fire" that comes upon them?? Is there a fire that will come upon them?? Will all confess Jesus Christ as Lord in this life?? What will be there "coming to a knowledge Jesus Christ is Lord"???

I'm not sure there is anything to bring one to this, as the destruction in the new testament times was to destroy the old covenant and old covenant mindset. Not to say people dont' still operate under an old covenant mindset, but truth is God is no longer bound to the old covenant. The divorce is final. So is there a destructive fire to come to everyone today??? Not sure, unless it is their personal "physical" death. A member here sees it as this based on discussions he and i have had in the past. He sees the day of the Lord as each person's physical death.

So, what i'm kind of thinking is, as sin spread to all man through Adam, Love will spread to all men in time through Christ. So eventually all will know Christ and the Fathers Love. But many in this day, don't, and I think that is OK. The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, that grows into a fully branched tree.

I hope this makes sense.

I just wonder if there is a "second death" to non believers, ie: a lake of fire in this age; if so, what is it?? and why is there a need for it, if God is at peace with mankind, just where they are??



any thoughts?


Laren

This is what I think I see too!! I believe there is much more that is FINISHED then we tend to see becuase of the way we have been taught!

Thanks for sharing Laren