The JEPD theory

SSA · **Posted:** Sun May 18, 2008 4:21 am

The documentary hypothesis (DH) proposes that the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, known collectively as the Torah or Pentateuch), represent a combination of documents from four originally independent sources. According to the influential version of the hypothesis formulated by Julius Wellhausen (1844 - 1918) these sources and the approximate dates of their composition were:

the J, or Jahwist, source; written c. 950 BC in the southern kingdom of Judah. (The name Yahweh begins with a J in Wellhausen's native German.)
the E, or Elohist, source; written c. 850 BC in the northern kingdom of Israel.
the D, or Deuteronomist, source; written c. 621 BC in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform.
the P, or Priestly, source; written c. 450 BC by Aaronid priests.
The editor who combined the sources into the final Pentateuch is known as R, for Redactor, and might have been Ezra.

"Starting from the simple question of how to reconcile inconsistencies in the text, and refusing to accept forced explanations to harmonize them, scholars eventually arrived at the theory that the Torah was composed of selections woven together from several, at times inconsistent, sources dealing with the same and related subjects. The reasoning followed in this kind of analysis is somewhat similar to that of the Talmudic sages and later rabbis who held that inconsistent clauses and terminology in a single paragraph of the Mishna must have originated with different sages, and who recognized that Moses could not have written passages of the Torah that contain information unavailable to him, such as the last chapter of Deuteronomy, which describes his death and its aftermath."[1]
According to Wellhausen, the four sources present a picture of Israel's religious history, which he saw as one of ever-increasing centralization and priestly power. Wellhausen's hypothesis became the dominant view on the origin of the Pentateuch for much of the 20th century. Most contemporary Bible experts accept some form of the documentary hypothesis,[2] and scholars continue to draw on Wellhausen's terminology

This is from Wiki and I sure would like to explore this in more depth - I googled and just like I thought, there are folk that simple dismiss this as an irrelevant theory - a "just don't go there.." or "it does not warrant accepting.." warnings.

I have heard this bantered around but never really knew what it meant. I have anyways had concerns in the duplication of stories in the OT that just do not quite seem to be the same - this all with the suggestion that the scribes were diligent and "never made mistakes" while copying.

Now I do not know about you, but if I was a copy writer and saw similar yet conflicting accounts of the same story, I would raise a red flag to my supervisor. The appeal to non-logic by the folk in the inerrancy camp is astounding when even without a JEPD or JEDP theory, there are glaring red flags being waved. Many whom I have discussed this with, have not really done a thorough analysis or research into the claims of inerrancy but merely state that the "original" texts (of which we do not have copies of anymore - once copied, originals were destroyed) were inerrant - talk about fuzzy logic? :whistle:

The JEPD theory seems to suggest 4 major authorships which give us today the OT. It also suggests that Moses may not have even authored the first five books of the OT.

As I do not consider myself a Judeo-Christian but rather a Gentile Christian, my roots are not found in the Torah or with Judaism, it is found in Christ.

Here is the challenge:

Evaluate your foundation and ask is it Christ or is it the "whole bible"?

Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I do not have a demon, but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
Joh 8:50 And I do not seek My own glory, but there is One who seeks and judges.
Joh 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keeps My Word, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham and the prophets are dead, and you say, If a man keeps my Word, he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets are dead; whom do you make yourself?
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
Joh 8:55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

Two things here:

The reference to my Word and also the reference to Abraham. From this account and taking into consideration the JEPD theory - it does appear there is some creedence to this theory. It does now appear to make sense that there may have been an alteration and or mixing of different accounts by different sects of the split Jewish culture. We must also realise that Judah is the name from which the word Jew is derived and there was a split between the tribe of Judah and the rest of Israel and they warred against each other.

So which name of God is correct YHWH or Elohim?

I do not have a theory that I hold to as yet as this is all new to me too. I do however question much of the OT but never knew why I did this - maybe this will shed some more light.

I encourage you to do your own research and contribute here on this thread.

Blessings

GodisLove · **Posted:** Sun May 18, 2008 3:46 pm

I have almost all of Friedmans books on the jdep theory and it is a very mindblowing hypothasis. I would suggest anyone read about it because it totally opens up the ot in ways one would never have seen and explains how it came to be.

Also, of import to me is that the priestly writings which make their way thru when seperated out and put together contail all the wrath. That was mindblowing in itself for me in that its always been religion and its priests that paint a very angry wrathful God. In the priestly group you will not find the word grace one time.

blessings

SSA · **Posted:** Sun May 18, 2008 4:43 pm

Hi GiL

Are these books available online? If so we can maybe take one at a time and analyse ite here.

Interesting about the Priestly lot and kinda makes sense in view of the scrip I posted.

Blessings

GodisLove · **Posted:** Sun May 18, 2008 5:42 pm

No they are not available online and the one that is probably the most indepth if you were to get only one would be

'Who Wrote The Bible' by Richard Elliott Friedman

This book gives the theory of jdep in depth

I did find an article online that gives some of the depth on an athiest forum where christians and athiests discussed it here:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=226169

here is more:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/archive/in ... 67948.html

loveroftruth · **Posted:** Sun May 18, 2008 6:08 pm

GodisLove wrote:

No they are not available online and the one that is probably the most indepth if you were to get only one would be

'Who Wrote The Bible' by Richard Elliott Friedman

This book gives the theory of jdep in depth

I did find an article online that gives some of the depth on an athiest forum where christians and athiests discussed it here:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=226169

here is more:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/archive/in ... 67948.html

Thanks for the info sis!!

GodisLove · **Posted:** Sun May 18, 2008 6:54 pm

YW

I got out my book and refreshed some stuff so I wouldnt misspeak

anywho here is some of what I found enlightening

according to the theory p is authored by a redactor whom had to be a priest. And the whole crux of it is that je were written around the same times by judah and israel, they varied in their views seeing as they were split but told the same stories in a lot of incidents from the different view points making their side look the best haha

the thing is in P its important to a priest that Aaron be the biggy. So he rewrites the je but putting aaron in the main role and priesthood as the way to God. You must go to a priest and there is no imbetweens as in God never talks to man in dreams, thru animals or angels or prophets except one prophetic saying. It is vital in the P that the priesthood and tabernacle is the center and only sacrifices thru them are the way to God.

Here is a quote:

page 196-97

Concepts of God

Over and over, P develops this point that the Aaronid priest at the sacrifial altar is the people's channel to the deity. If you have sinned and want to be forgiven, the thing to do is bring a sacrifice to a priest at the Tabernacle. In the P text, there is not a single reference to God as merciful. The very words, "mercy, grace, faithfulness and repent never occur" The point, apparently, is to develop the idea that forgiveness cannot be had just because one is sorry. One can be sorry without turning to a priest - and without bringing the priest an offering. Rather, in P, God is just. He has established a set of rules by which one can acquire forgiveness, and the rules must be followed. This is in stark contrast to the JE picture of God as
merciful and gracious, long forebearing and full of faithfulness and truth, storing faithfulness for thousands, bearing transgression and offense and sin....

The person who wrote P was not just changing details of stories. He was developing a concept of God. His work was literary, but his motivation was not only artistic, but also theological, political, and economic. He had to deal with challenges from other priests and other religious centers. He had to defend his group's legitimacy and to protect their authority. And he had to ensure their livlihood.

He also had to fight the insult to his ancestor Aaron. It is no great surprise that P does not include the stories of the golden calf or of snow-white Mariam. But this writer apparently also felt that the best defense is a good offense. They had challenged his ancestor, Aaron. He challenged their ancestor, Moses.

loveroftruth · **Posted:** Mon May 19, 2008 12:04 am

Great stuff!
I would love to hear more Godislove :tu:

I bet Paul has some good info on this too :mthumbsup:

jfraysse · **Posted:** Mon May 19, 2008 1:01 pm

Thank you, GiL for introducing me to these books and the DH Theory and thanks to you, Seeker, for your courage to look “Outside the Box” with this thread. :tu:

Many of you may know that I view the book we call “The Bible” in a skeptical light, especially the OT and can’t call myself a Christian in the Orthodox sense. Yet the Father, through His Spirit, has used the Bible as an enormous source of edification and growth for me as a NT follower of Jesus.

The DH topic is fascinating and I found this summary statement from an interview with the author, Richard Friedman, to be very interesting:

“When you read the Bible this way (DH/JEPD), you see it (the Bible) not just as the genius of any one person at one time, but the genius of a whole community over almost 1000 years.” A whole community of redactors over a period of 1000 years creating the Torah we have today? Heck, these “facts” could be more amazing than Moses writing the first five books! :mshock:

Personally, DH explains a lot about the groups of people who (likely) wrote the OT. It also provides a plausible framework for understanding how the OT was likely created and altered over time in a layer by layer fashion. I also find it noteworthy that the fear and judgment stuff comes exclusively from “P” – the Priesthood. Without FEAR, the “Business of the Priesthood” would not have existed in ancient times nor would it today. It is interesting that through all of the “Corrections” that Christendom has endured there has always remained enough “fear-inspiring” doctrine to allow it to flourish. :sigh:

The idea that God (or gods) demands appeasement, lest he render unspeakable punishment, is as old as recorded History. To me, this idea seems more pagan, blasphemous and anti-Christ than any of the present day Dogmas and yet it and the Institutionalized Church remain as do their power over public policy and the lives of the unwashed masses.

Again, thanks, Seeker, for starting this interesting thread! :giveflower:

In His Love, John :ht:

loveroftruth · **Posted:** Mon May 19, 2008 1:46 pm

Quote:

Personally, DH explains a lot about the groups of people who (likely) wrote the OT. It also provides a plausible framework for understanding how the OT was likely created and altered over time in a layer by layer fashion. I also find it noteworthy that the fear and judgment stuff comes exclusively from “P” – the Priesthood. Without FEAR, the “Business of the Priesthood” would not have existed in ancient times nor would it today.

I find this amazing information!!!
It kind of makes me see that even today we have the differnent groups, all preaching that which in someway supports their needs or cause.

Great stuff! :dis:

firstborn888 · **Joined:** Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am **Posts:** 318

How strange - I first heard of this concept just a few hours ago. There's a 12 part youtube series which deals with some of this. Where is this leading guys????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suseKsLE ... re=related

blessings,
- Byron

Pierac · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 12:33 am

I will have to look into this!

Paul

GodisLove · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 2:12 am

That is not connected to Richard Friedman lol at least not that I could make out. Who is a professor of Hebrew studies. The books of his are not like what you have linked too.

that is connected to Zeitgeist I think. If you havent watched that, well its pretty wild.

This is Richard Friedman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYt3oom0pJg

firstborn888 · **Joined:** Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am **Posts:** 318

GodisLove wrote:

That is not connected to Richard Friedman lol at least not that I could make out. Who is a professor of Hebrew studies. The books of his are not like what you have linked too.

I linked these just because it's where I first heard of the JEPD theory a few hours before reading this thread.
- Byron

GodisLove · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 2:29 am

Oh, well lots of strange things out there that take this and twist it to all kinds of shapes.

but I have to say Friedmans book is wonderful and made me much more impressed with the ot than before reading it. It just makes it come much more alive to me.

But that is me :)

SSA · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 7:16 am

firstborn888 wrote:

How strange - I first heard of this concept just a few hours ago. There's a 12 part youtube series which deals with some of this. Where is this leading guys????
blessings,
- Byron

Hi Byron

Dunno where this will go but I am sure it will be interesting. It is new to me too as I stated and It does seem to be something that we need to explore.

If GiL is up to it, as she has already walked down this path I hope she will take the time to educate us on this theory. It is a pity the full book is not available online - snippets may be available but chances with a bias.

For me there are many stories in the OT that seem to contradict which suggests to me there may be some truth to the JPED theory but it is a theory and should be explored as such. My time is limited these days so unfortunately on this topic I will be a commenter - I will see if the books are available here in South Africa.

Blessings

loveroftruth · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 1:02 pm

Quote:

If GiL is up to it, as she has already walked down this path I hope she will take the time to educate us on this theory.

I too would love to know more :tu:

GodisLove · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 4:53 pm

Im no teacher guys and I am no expert just because I have a few books on this topic lol

I would just suggest buying the one book if you are interested. I didnt even read the whole book, only parts of it and skimmed the others as Ive sorta moved on to things of more interest to me right now.

sorry Im of such little help but maybe someone else will see this topic and chime in :giveflower:

loveroftruth · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2008 11:00 pm

GodisLove wrote:

Im no teacher guys and I am no expert just because I have a few books on this topic lol

I would just suggest buying the one book if you are interested. I didnt even read the whole book, only parts of it and skimmed the others as Ive sorta moved on to things of more interest to me right now.

sorry Im of such little help but maybe someone else will see this topic and chime in :giveflower:

StudentoftheWord · **Joined:** Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm **Posts:** 215

Through my studies, I did not come across the JEPD theory, but I did find a theory very much close to it. It was called a Terteriac (SP?) Theory. It states that the first five books of the Bible were not written by one man, but in fact many. It was a composition of stories passed down by generation to generation and compiled into one book.

Terteriac has the root in the word '3', which states that for every event in the OT, there is '3' distinctive and completely different endings or conclusions.

The best example of this '3' is in the death and burial of Abraham. His body was placed in '3' different places.

SSA · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2008 4:59 am

GodisLove wrote:

Im no teacher guys and I am no expert just because I have a few books on this topic lol

I would just suggest buying the one book if you are interested. I didnt even read the whole book, only parts of it and skimmed the others as Ive sorta moved on to things of more interest to me right now.

sorry Im of such little help but maybe someone else will see this topic and chime in :giveflower:

Don't you just want to post some juicy snippets - you need not defend of give opinion. :giveflower:

The JEPD theory

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