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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Q: Who is Lucifer (Part 1) Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:26 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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A:
WHO IS LUCIFER
by Craig Nolin, written March 3, 2008
CHRISTIANIZATION
American Heritage Dictionary Definition:
To take over or adapt in the name of Christianity: pagan monuments Christianized by early missionaries.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
The historical phenomenon of Christianization, the conversion of individuals or entire population to Christianity including the practice of converting native pagan practices and culture, pagan religious imagery, pagan sites and the pagan calendar to Christian uses.
1 Timothy 1:3-5
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Timothy 4:6-8
If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
2 Timothy 4:1-5
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
Who is Lucifer?
He is the son of the Roman God Aurua, his Greek name is Phospheros. In Roman Religion, he is a minor god, God of the Morning Star1,2 Lucifer is Latin for 'Light Bearer' and a Roman deity associated with the planet Venus, which was known as Lucifer in Roman astrology before Venus, daughter of Jupiter, was promoted from Goddess of vegetation to Goddess of love and beauty with the planet renamed in her honor.3
There is no Scriptural source which defines Lucifer as Satan. In fact, the word Lucifer was an addition to the Scriptures in place of the Hebrew word, Heylel, which was the literal name of Venus; and, Shahar, which just means "Star of the Morning" or sometimes translated, "Son of the Morning'. The word was in reference to Babylonian Kings and titles they used to claim their divine right to rule. Artifacts such as the Cyrus Cylinder, confirm such assertions were made by kings of the ancient world.
Babylonian Kings such as King Nebuchadrezzar, who according to Babylonian culture, was either worshipped as a God, or an agent or son of God and very common title which they bestowed upon themselves. According to Daniel, Nebuchadrezzar was given all authority and dominion over mankind, beasts of the field and birds of the air, and where they live. God made him ruler over them all with the title of King of Kings;4 a title also reserved for Persian King, Artaxerxes5; and in Christianity to Jesus Christ6. In such way, a man who has dominion over the beasts of the field, birds of the air, and over mankind, indeed had his power based in heaven and were called by the title, Light Bringer, Morning Star, Son of the Morning, etc. and to lose such authority would have him fall to earth.
In all actuality, there is no scriptural source which defines Lucifer as Satan, nor has any description of Satan being an Angel of Light who rebelled against God and was cast out from heaven and changed to the serpent, Satan. The Latin word was added to the Hebrew Text by Jerome in the 4th Century and was in fact the first to ever present the belief that Lucifer was the serpent in the Garden with Adam and Eve. In addition, the reasons for Jeromes misguided and inaccurate translation of Heylel, may be found in his religious politics within the church itself. One of Jeromes main adversaries (satan means adversary) was the Bishop of Cagliari, who was also named Lucifer Calaritanus, who founded the Luciferians. Hoping that the allusion itself was strong enough to condemn the Bishop of Cagliari and his followers as heretics, Jerome hoped to have their ideas and movement abolished. In the 7th Century, Augustine focused on the Vulgate mistranslation and added more to the idea of an angel named Lucifer who rebelled against God because of pride and took down 1/3 of the angels.2,7
REFERENCES
1 http://www.unrv.com/culture/minor-roman-god-list.php (retrieved 03/03/08); http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lucifer_2.html (retrieved 03/03/08) 2 Hamilton, Edith. Mythology. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1942. 3 http://www.castleofspirits.com/origindevils.html (retrieved 03/03/08) 4 Daniel 2:36-38, Ezekiel 26:7 KJV 5 Ezra 7:12 KJV 6 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14, 19:16 KJV 7 http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp? ... ch=Lucifer (retrieved 03/03/08)
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loveroftruth
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:44 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am Posts: 373 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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I am really looking forward to printing this out and reading it. Thanks Craig!
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Dawn
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:41 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:21 pm Posts: 91
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Thanks Craig!
Interesting. I have read some things on the mistranslated word "Lucifer" but had never heard the part about the Bishop of Cagliari.
I'm really going to enjoy this forum!
Dawn
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:47 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Dawn wrote: Thanks Craig!
Interesting. I have read some things on the mistranslated word "Lucifer" but had never heard the part about the Bishop of Cagliari.
I'm really going to enjoy this forum!
Dawn
There is many references to a well known fact concerning Jerome and Lucifer's differences. Jerome even wrote about it in a book he wrote, Altercatio Luciferiani et orthodoxi, or in English, "Altercation of the Luciferian and the orthodox"
It is also strange that Jerome was the first to associate Lucifer being the serpent in the garden and adding the Latin word "Lucifer" in place of the Hebrew word "Heylel" thus establishing Lucifer and Satan as synonymous...
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Pierac
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Thumbs Up! (Sorry but the Emoticion is missing)
Paul
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Anonymous
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:03 am |
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solid post Craig
Blessings
Taffy
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Sazzy
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:20 am |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 9:42 am Posts: 5 Location: UK
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That was riveting stuff!
I have a question though.
I stopped believing in the 'Lucifer-is-Satan' myth ages ago but still struggle to determine what exactly Satan is.
As usual, when I learn something new, I find some poor hapless Fundie to share it with. But one of the things that was brought to my attention was the verse in Luke 10:18. Apparently, this is one of the verses that gives those who believe that Satan was Lucifer alot of steam. And as it says 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven' I find myself unable to suitably explain or refute it.
Could anyone offer insight with it?
Thanks in advance
Sarah
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Shibboleth
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:20 am |
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Thanks for this post, Craig and thanks for the links to other sites....they are quite interesting. You always make me think and I truly learn a lot from you. 
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GodisLove
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:14 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:12 pm Posts: 270 Location: Where ever I am!
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Nice Craig
I have found studying mythology very enlightening.
great post!
_________________ Speak to Him thou for He hears, and Spirit with
Spirit can meet-
Closer is He than breathing, and nearer than hands and feet.
Tennyson
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jfraysse
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:23 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm Posts: 204 Location: Richmond, VA
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Way to go Craig! Another famous Christian myth bites the dust! Grace & Peace, John
_________________ I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!
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fire walker
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:16 am |
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Hello Craig,
I think most here know that I never did fall for the traditionaly organized churches doctrines of Satan as
a Holy angel gone bad and because of that he fell,, am not going to site any scriptures now, but a lot of things taught in religious church doctrines say things about Satan that the bible is silient on, they are countless stories and therories about Satan promoted in many various churches that are doctrines of men, many times
leading lollowers of these churches to be in continual fear of Satan and see evil in every shadow and lurking around
every corner.
I enjoyed your post on this subject, in some ways it appears to me as Bobylon is mystery Babylon, I see many things about Satans working that is mystery, that is not completely out into the light where we can say we know everything about Satan that there is to know, in other words the mystery of Satans working and how he works at all times has not yet been fully revealed, Only God knows the end from the begining regards Satan though we are given to know in part as revelation comes by spirit
I do not see where we should be in fear of Satan unless we tamper and play games with the occult and get caught up in the deception of it, these churches by promoting false doctrines regarding Satan is just as misleading.
Peace,
Fire Walker.
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:26 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Sazzy wrote: That was riveting stuff!
I have a question though.
I stopped believing in the 'Lucifer-is-Satan' myth ages ago but still struggle to determine what exactly Satan is.
As usual, when I learn something new, I find some poor hapless Fundie to share it with. But one of the things that was brought to my attention was the verse in Luke 10:18. Apparently, this is one of the verses that gives those who believe that Satan was Lucifer alot of steam. And as it says 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven' I find myself unable to suitably explain or refute it.
Could anyone offer insight with it?
Thanks in advance Sarah
I will focus on that in my next installment! :)
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:54 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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As I demonstrated before, the word "Lucifer" is name of the Morning Star, it is not the Name of Satan prior to falling to earth. It is LITERALLY the name of the planet 2nd from the Sun, also known as the Heylel in Hebrew, Eosphorus in Greek and Lucifer in Latin, then later Venus in Latin as it remains today. Although Roman religion was used to name the lights in the skies, literally, the usage of Morning Star does not refer to the Roman myth, it refers literally to what we know today as the Morning Star, a light that precedes the Sun to announce a new day is coming, the 2nd planet from the Sun. The word 'Lucifer' is not found in the Hebrew translation, it is Heylel. Heylel has never been anything more than the 2nd planet from the son. There was no legend or myth surrounding it for the Hebrew people, other than it was the title the kings of ancient word called themselves. Artifacts from the time period, demonstrate this soundly.
Heylel actually means, "Mourning", it literally means to 'Grieve the end of the Day', which by Hebrew tradition, the day begins in evening and ends in morning. The Morning Star was an announcement that the day is almost over. This helps people understand why Paul called Jesus the Morning Star in the letter to Timothy, and that everything ends in the Light of Day. Jesus is also quoted by John in Revelation as being the Morning Star, the star which is signifies both the Beginning and End (the Morning Star is also the Dawn Star, they are the same Star).
Instead of using the Hebrew word for the Morning Star, Heylel, Jerome used the word 'Lucifer'. This was done in the 4th Century A.D. and gained acceptance by the Roman people who already believed and were taught the Roman religion where Lucifer, god of the morning, the Morning Star, challenged Apollos/Sol (the Sun God) to who is the most powerful. Lucifer led a rebellion against Apollos/Sol, but lost being cast down to prison on earth and replaced by Jupiter's daughters, Venus. Later, Augustine expounded on the invented doctrine and found new ways to incorporate, perhaps not consciously, the Roman myth into Christianity. He used it in reference to his political adversary, the Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus. He then, for the first time in Christian doctrine and theology, said that it was the name of Satan prior to his fall from Light, a doctrine which had never been taught previously and applied it to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. He used it deceivingly, in order to discredit his political and theological adversary.
The question one must ask, is why did Jerome change one instance of 'Morning Star', and not all the instances of 'Morning Star' to the name, "Lucifer"? Well history shows he in fact did. He also replaced other places he thought spoke of the 2nd Planet from the Sun with the name "Lucifer" as well.
Job 11:17
Life will be brighter than noonday,and darkness will become like Lucifer [morning].
2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and Lucifer [the Morning Star] rises in your hearts.
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and Lucifer [the Bright Morning Star]."
The Catholic Dictionary defines Luficer: The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
As the evidence piles up, even the Catholic church admits that it was an invention of Jerome, and not a Christian doctrine at all. It is a tradition of Christianity that prevailed, but not correct. There are many 'Christian' traditions that prevailed, but have no truth in them at all. Personally, I am still astounded after all the facts are shared, that people still continue to believe other things.
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Zero_Fly
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:18 pm |
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A lot of people will also use Ezekiel Chapter 28 as proof that Satan was Lucifer.
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
21 Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,
22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
Those verses in bold are the ones people will commonly use and say that is proof of Lucifer being Satan, but notice in the beginning that it's really about this prince of tyrus. It seems to be like the same thing in Isiah 14, that it's really about a royal human, not an angel at all. The only reason they think it would be about an angel is because of the use of the word Cherub, and the reference to Eden. I've come to conclusion that those verse are actually talking about Adam and not Satan at all.
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firstborn888
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:12 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am Posts: 318
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Sazzy wrote: But one of the things that was brought to my attention was the verse in Luke 10:18. Apparently, this is one of the verses that gives those who believe that Satan was Lucifer alot of steam. And as it says 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven' I find myself unable to suitably explain or refute it.
Could anyone offer insight with it?
Thanks in advance Sarah
heaven = Greek root "heave" or "raised up" ie: 'High place' (by implication - 'authority').
Jesus gave the disciples the power to tear down that authority.
The disciples came back so happy and saying (my paraphrase) "Master, even the demons are subject to us (are under our authority) now!"
Jesus agrees: (my paraphrase) "Yes, while you were out there I was watching satan falling from 'heaven' (from his 'high place' of authority) like lightening.
blessings,
- Byron
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:20 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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firstborn888 wrote: Sazzy wrote: But one of the things that was brought to my attention was the verse in Luke 10:18. Apparently, this is one of the verses that gives those who believe that Satan was Lucifer alot of steam. And as it says 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven' I find myself unable to suitably explain or refute it.
Could anyone offer insight with it?
Thanks in advance Sarah heaven = Greek root "heave" or "raised up" ie: 'High place' (by implication - 'authority'). Jesus gave the disciples the power to tear down that authority. The disciples came back so happy and saying (my paraphrase) "Master, even the demons are subject to us (are under our authority) now!" Jesus agrees: (my paraphrase) "Yes, while you were out there I was watching satan falling from 'heaven' (from his 'high place' of authority) like lightening. blessings, - Byron
Correct. That is the context, that Jesus answered them. Satan was losing power because of the disciples; his place of authority being destroyed by the Name of Jesus, whom He gave authority to His disciples. Heaven, doesn't need to go by it's root word, just by it's cognitive usage throughout Scripture. Scripture called Satan the principality of the air, the wickedness in high places, and a dragon with wings. In the past, Satan had access to the Celestial heavens, as we know from Job; but, we also know that he was not from the Celestial heavens when God asked him where he was from. The answer Satan gave Him, I come from earth.
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Nephesh
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:13 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:56 pm Posts: 9
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So Craig Nolin maybe the question should not be "who is Lucifer?" but rather "who is Satan?" then? Since by your studies you have shown that Lucifer cannot be Satan, where did the adversary come from then?
p.s. always thought those references in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 seemed "dodgy".
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:22 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Nephesh wrote: So Craig Nolin maybe the question should not be "who is Lucifer?" but rather "who is Satan?" then? Since by your studies you have shown that Lucifer cannot be Satan, where did the adversary come from then?
p.s. always thought those references in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 seemed "dodgy".
Yes, they are very dodgy, Scripture actually does tell us who Satan is, but the religious of the day don't want their roots to be found in him, so they invented mythes and kept the true origins of Satan secret through their lies.
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Nephesh
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:42 am |
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:56 pm Posts: 9
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Would love for you to walk us through a biblical study about the reality of Satan in that case. So he did not fall from grace as an angel? He had never been in harmony with God but completely evil from the beginning? If so why did God create such a creature? It seems someone like that could know only unending misery and torment.  Do you believe Satan to be a literal being though? Not sure what you believe ... sorry ... 
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firstborn888
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:57 am |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am Posts: 318
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Satan = adversary/opposer and is just a Hebrew word like any other (no capitol "S" needed). Devil means (from it's Greek roots) "to cast down with words" ie: accuse. So ironically "The caster down of the brethren will be cast down"
What's fun is to just look at these words and their roots in a Strong's concordance and see what you come up with. Remember though to look at roots and not the religious commentaries.
A great example is Peter when he was not seeing the plan of God. He was opposing Jesus therefore was called satan (an opposer). God is an opposer of the proud. So you can see that the Hebrew 'satan' would apply BUT it's so hard to get thousands of years of religion and devil cartoon characters out of your head  right?
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Nephesh
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:55 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:56 pm Posts: 9
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firstborn888 wrote: A great example is Peter when he was not seeing the plan of God. He was opposing Jesus therefore was called satan (an opposer). God is an opposer of the proud. So you can see that the Hebrew 'satan' would apply BUT it's so hard to get thousands of years of religion and devil cartoon characters out of your head  right?
Not really, seeing as "devil cartoon characters" never existed in this head to begin with. Thinking of Satan as an individual entity does not require adopting idiotic caricatures nor does it imply imbecility to do so. Most archetypes you will find to be as old as the human race itself.
Craig - would still like to hear your study/take on this as well please. And as an aside, not just about Satan but about demons as well (who/what would they be, then -- spirits of the dead? figurative critters embodying human psych complexes? or what?)
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StudentoftheWord
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:14 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 pm Posts: 215
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Nephesh wrote: firstborn888 wrote: A great example is Peter when he was not seeing the plan of God. He was opposing Jesus therefore was called satan (an opposer). God is an opposer of the proud. So you can see that the Hebrew 'satan' would apply BUT it's so hard to get thousands of years of religion and devil cartoon characters out of your head  right? Not really, seeing as "devil cartoon characters" never existed in this head to begin with. Thinking of Satan as an individual entity does not require adopting idiotic caricatures nor does it imply imbecility to do so. Most archetypes you will find to be as old as the human race itself. Craig - would still like to hear your study/take on this as well please. And as an aside, not just about Satan but about demons as well (who/what would they be, then -- spirits of the dead? figurative critters embodying human psych complexes? or what?)
I am writing now on the origin of Satan, by showing the Babylonian religion Zoraster and the Greek Religion involving Zeus casting down the winged Serpent.
In the meantime, I will explain what Satan is
Satan is not a man and is only anthropomorphized so that we can relate more to his function. Unanthropormorphized, it does not have emotion, it does not have intelligence, nor is it a soul. It is a spirit called the accuser (or opposition), it's purpose is to sift mankind and help us recognize the Truth and the difference between good and evil. This particular spirit functions more as a Title, than a being, because anyone, the Law, your friends, your family, can operate in this function. Where there is no unity, Satan exists. Where there is no harmony, Satan exists. When there is unity and harmony, Satan ceases to exist.
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Zero_Fly
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:13 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:57 pm Posts: 13
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I can't wait to see this when your finished, and this is definitely something that needs to get out there. For some help look to the book of Job obviously. This has been something I have been thinking about lately with the whole omniscience of God. Since God knows everything past present and future, doesn't this make God the author of sin? I'm not being anti-God when I say this, but just pointing out the obvious. It says in Isiah that God is the author of both Good & Evil, and since God is the foundation for all things. Why would God do this? It says in the scriptures that God chastens those He loves and since He Loves all of humanity isn't he chastening all of us? I'm sorry if this seems off topic, but I'm trying to relate this to the Satan subject. Why would God allow this evil or evil in general to happen?
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firstborn888
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:06 am |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 am Posts: 318
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Nephesh wrote: firstborn888 wrote: A great example is Peter when he was not seeing the plan of God. He was opposing Jesus therefore was called satan (an opposer). God is an opposer of the proud. So you can see that the Hebrew 'satan' would apply BUT it's so hard to get thousands of years of religion and devil cartoon characters out of your head  right? Not really, seeing as "devil cartoon characters" never existed in this head to begin with. Thinking of Satan as an individual entity does not require adopting idiotic caricatures nor does it imply imbecility to do so. Most archetypes you will find to be as old as the human race itself.
Well... it's difficult for me, after hearing 'Satan' used as the formal name of a person a gazillion times to get the 'person' part out of my head. The caricatures which are displayed over and over and over can have a powerful effect even upon intelligent people 
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God_Chaser_007
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:07 am |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:18 am Posts: 15
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May I share? its just something to share and for others to "search the matter" out.
We had a teaching in our church on who lucifer was, lucifer was adam while he was in his glorified body and when he sinned lucifer (adam) fell.
i'm at work at the moment but when i get home later tonight i shall post my notes from the teachings.
I am not saying "this is correct, only we know and you should listen" - please i am not saying that, it is a point of discussion and for your references should you wish to further explore this teaching.
Peace-n-blessings
GC
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