I may be a supporter of capital punishment, but I've never hated anything in life as much as what I hate this doctrine and can only agree with Robert Ingersoll



This is the main reason my parents have never become grandparents at my hands, if one believes in this vile, unspeakable, doctrine that orthodox christendom embraces and holds dear to their hearts, then each birth should be a period of ceaseless sorrow and anguish, instead of joy, for at least 20 years I reluctantly believed in this, and it's like a scourge on my soul, for at least 32 of my nearly 42 years on earth, I wish I'd never been born

My life hasn't been easy, I've never known a youth, I've never known true friendship or true happiness or love, that I can come to terms with and accept, however I will NEVER be able to accept and come to grips with the fact that the majority of mankind was created, just for the sole purpose of being tortured forever

I'm only about 50 percent sure hell doesn't exist, I personally don't mind the doctrine of annihilation, if UR isn't true, I certainly cannot identify with, or want to live in the presence of people, that could be so cold and callous that they could derive pleasure from the intense unending sufferings of others

Divine justice they call it, however God foresaw this would happen, I'm not some liberal that thinks people should go totally unpunished, however if God foresaw this, then surely unlike what meanstream christendom harps on about, man isn't entirely to blame since we didn't choose to come into existence in the first place, Calvinism makes some kind of sense, the only trouble is it reflects a totally unloving and cruel god.

How can unending torment possibly be reasonable??????, I so so hate this doctrine with a fiery unending passion, and could never defend it, by default that makes me a heretic, that's why I consider myself an agnostic theist

My heart goes out to you dear one....

Hi QOP, saw the post earlier but did not have time to respond.

For me UR is just a more acceptable version of the theist standpoint but even in that camp, there are inconsistencies. We start off ignoring the OT stuff and correctly translating hell as the grave etc. Then what?

I have come to the conclusion that UR is atheism-lite and it takes a few more steps to totally question the validity of the bible. I have taken those last few steps and I am not sorry. If there is a god, he/she must be a loving one as anything else just sucks as I see no reason what we are to hold something in reverence that never manifests itself to us except though other people, surely an awesome god such as what we think he/she is could simply take a second out of the busy schedule of micromanaging the world and simply say howdy, I am god and .....

Sadly that has never happened and all we have are dreams a visions .

In line with the ET doctrine, satan plays a role and in all my time, I have never met him/her either. Thus to me these are all constructs of man's desire for eternal life and man has created god in his/her image.

Eternal life and that is forever and ever (and then some) to me would be hell in itself. After 70 odd years here to simply no longer exist is my preference and my belief.

If however I am wrong, well then I will ask god a lot of questions as to why kids are abused w/o his/her intervention, why there is so much poverty/suffering/inequality in the world w/o his/her intervention. Saying we are to learn from suffering, IMO is a load of crap.

I used to defend this invisible god I thought I knew - a god should require NO defense whatsoever.

Regards

Bernie

Sister QOP67:

You are right to despise the Dogma of Hell! You are right to challenge anything and everything that grieves the Spirit within you. You are right to discard portions of the Bible that make no sense or are vile and inconsistent with a loving Creator. And if agnosticism is your choice, you are justified in it as well. God created you with a mind with which to think, a heart with which to empathize and His Spirit to lead you in Truth. Always follow them and do not be afraid of where they may take you! Truth is Life to your flesh and marrow to your bones. Always seek it.

BTW, Hell does not exist. It was added by the RCC in the 4th Century. The oldest copy of the oldest Gospel, the Sinai Bible copy of Mark has no mention of hell as a place of eternal torment. The modern copies of Mark have lots of stuff added including additions to verses which support ET.

The RCC canonized what they wanted to support Hell, the exclusivity of Jesus, the Trinity and the mission to conquer the World in the name of God. You are now being lead out of the lies of Orthodoxy. Keep seeking with that pure heart of yours!

Also folks here would be happy to discuss other questions you may have but don’t expect miracles. We don’t have all the answers but I can guarantee that you will be safe here. You will not be ridiculed for disagreeing with us nor challenging religious traditions and Dogmas.

In His Love, John

[/quote]

"forever and ever 'and then some'" you funny dude...

Of course I am a little sad to hear this flat out (though I knew) and (of course) I'm not really sad because we'll ultimately meet up anyway

I can't tell you how blessed I feel to have gone straight from atheism to UR and also that no other human was present. Except I feel a bit guilty right now

Of course orthodoxy did get a little hold on me for awhile there - but you helped me come all the way back out - thanks for that Bernie.

Where the Hell did Hell Come From?

Jewish Origins? Not Exactly

Orthodox Jews do not believe in Hell! Nevertheless, there is a Jewish link to the concept.

Hell, as a place, has its probable origins in the Hinnom Valley outside of Jerusalem. This place was, in ancient times, a place noted for child-sacrifice and unspeakable evils. The earliest mention of the Valley of Hinnom is in Joshua 15:8 and 18:16, where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern bank, overlooking the valley at its eastern end, we are told that, King Solomon (now a corrupt king) erected high places in honor of the pagan god of the Ammonites, Molech (1 Kings 11:7). The worship of Molech, whose horrid rites were forbidden by God, were nevertheless practiced in this place later on by the idolatrous kings, Ahaz and Manasseh.

The books of Kings, Chronicles and Jeremiah record that these Jewish kings “did evil in the sight of the Lord” and amongst their atrocities was the sin of causing their children to "pass through the fire" (burnt offerings) in the this valley (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). In particular, the city of Topheth, at the southeast end of the valley, was singled out by Jeremiah (Jeremiah 9:6-15), to be cursed with cannibalism and death for these practices.

To put an end to these abominations, the Biblical record tells us that Josiah polluted it, rendering it ceremonially unclean by spreading human bones and other corruptions over it (2 Kings 23:10,13-14; 2 Chronicles 34:3-5). From that time, it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which its sewage was placed to be carried off by the waters of the river Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement and from the abominable fires of Molech, the Jews appear to have named this valley Ge Hinnom or "Gehenna," to denote a place of eternal defilement, filth and uncleanness. After a time, and during the life of Jesus, all the rubbish of Jerusalem was burnt there. It is the word “Gehenna” that is translated “Hell” by the King James Bible and many other translations. Consequently, Hell is literally a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem!

What did it mean to cast a Jew into “Gehenna” (Hell)?

When a Jew died, it was customary that they be buried before sundown to honor their life. But for evil men (ex: murderers and traitors) receiving dishonor, ridicule and shame, the body was, many times, cast into a fire or a rubbish heap. Dead “Enemies of Israel” were also treated in this manner on occasion.

Being condemned to Gehenna not only meant death, but also that ones body would be cast into the loathsome Valley of Hinnom. This is very likely the sense of Gehenna or “Hell” that Jesus spoke about as He tried to relate to the people of His day. So, we see “Gehenna” as a “garbage dump” and an extreme place of dishonor and defilement after ones death – NOT a real place in the afterlife characterized by unspeakable torment for the “undead” for all eternity.

The threat of being cast unto the rubbish heap (Gehenna) instead of being buried was, in Jesus' day, a Jewish means of “final retribution” It was a symbolic separation from the Jewish Nation and by extension, the Jewish God - NOT the eternal deposition of ones “soul”. This explanation and understanding seems to be a more reasonable meaning to the practice of the day.

The New Testament Context of “Gehenna” (Hell)

"Gehenna" appears in the NT Greek text twelve times (Matthew.5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). These texts do not indicate that “Gehenna” is a "final state." Also the end of the verses in Mark 9:44,46,and 48 seem to contain words describing "unextinguished fire…” and are quotes lifted from Isaiah 66:23 and 24. But these “extensions” to these three verses are NOT in the oldest copies of Mark!

The oldest Gospel we have is Mark. The Sinai Bible version of Mark is the oldest copy that we have which dates to about 380 AD or 350 years after Jesus’ death and about 50 years after the first meeting of the Counsel of Nicene. We have no originals of any Biblical texts, just copies of copies.

I use Sinai Mark as the standard Gospel to look for all potential truths about Jesus and the “Gospel”. Matthew and Luke have verbatim copies of Mark in them and were written much later and are greatly embellished with respect to Mark. The Gospel of John was written even later than these and seems radically different in both style and content. BTW, Sinai Mark ends at verse 16:8. There is no great Commission or Great Condemnation.

The verses in Mark 9:43-48 seem to describe “hell” as a place of Eternal Torture but verses 44, 46 and 48 (“where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched”) are NOT in the Sinai Bible! They were later copied directly from part of Isaiah 66:24 and added. Some scholars think Isaiah 66 refers to the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21. Unfortunately, Isaiah 66:24 is describing a future time and place after the enemies of God have been destroyed and the bodies of the DEAD are being consumed by worms and huge cremation fires.

Notice that neither the verses in Mark nor the verses in Isaiah describe zombies screaming in agony – they are dead bodies! The “unextinguished fire” in Mark 9:43 was a contemporary description of Gehenna as its fires were typically burning all the time. Gehenna was a loathsome place and it was an extreme dishonor to have your dead body thrown there instead of receiving a proper Jewish burial.

Jews in Jesus’ day did not believe in “hell” or a place of endless torture nor do they believe in it today. Jesus was the first person to refer to God as His Heavenly Father. Orthodoxy wants you to believe He was also the inventor of the concept of eternal torture, ET.

I simply don’t believe that Jesus invented ET and I think Sinai Mark is at least one “smoking gun” that the Dogma of Hell was the clever invention of the RCC and also the primary reason to Canonize the Book of Revelation. Why? Fear and Control of the unwashed masses and the perpetuation of the Priesthood.

The Contribution of the Church

And let’s not forget the equation: Church = Control. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC), the ONLY church when the Bible was Canonized, decided which books to include in the Bible and how to translate and Interpret them. There were hundreds of writings that were rejected from the Canonization process because the RCC decided that they did not convey the “proper” image of God (fear) and “His requirements” (do this or else). In fact, the Book of Revelation was excluded from the initial process because of is “hellish” images and its veiled and ambiguous context (John’s “Dream or Vision”). But ultimately, the need for “fear and control” won the day and Revelation made it as the final book of the canon. Most of the “horrors of hell” emanate from this book.

Finally, for over a thousand years, the RCC held a strangle hold on “the scriptures”. This included not only the texts themselves, but also their interpreted meanings and most of the major Dogmas we recognize as “Christian” today – the concept of an eternal “hell” being one of these. Even Church approved plays by Dante supported the idea of eternal punishment and “layers of hell” that inspired the numerous paintings and depictions of Hell and Satan that we “enjoy” today. For most, our images and concepts of Hell and Satan are closer to Dante's vision than to the real history and the beliefs and understandings of Jesus.

A Simple Test

If we are given God’s Spirit to “lead us in all Truth” then I ask you, what is your spirit telling you regarding hell? If it is telling you, “hell, no”, then I think you have your answer!

In His Love, John

Thanks for all the replies to my thread

TBH I personally don't think the bible teaches UR, however I don't think it teaches ET either, unless you take the apocryphal books into account, especially 2 Esdras, which quite frankly really scares me, and is an accurate portrayal of a cold, unloving, narcissistic god, if one doesn't take the apocryphal books into account, I would say that the bible to me personally, seems to hint mostly towards annihilation, rather than either ET or UR

However, the problem quite simply is that we just don't know what happens when we die, one can disprove the pillars that the doctrine of ET is founded on, eg immortality of the soul etc, however it's another ballgame disproving that ET exists, the question is why would people like Mary Baxter and Bill Weise be making claims that they both saw and experienced it, their claims, in my own experience, far from having me draw closer to God, has actually driven me away from Him, because if their visions are true, it can only mean one thing, that God has predestined that the vast majority of humanity will end up there, even one person is subjected to that fate, it is an unspeakable nightmare, but their implication is that the vast majority of us have been forced into an existence, none of us asked for, just to face something far, far worse than we can ever face on earth

To me personally this is so bad, that the very names of Hitler and Saddam Hussein, sounds like music to my ears, I by default fall into the vast majority of mankind, as I cannot love a god that could have preplanned something so horrible for anyone, let alone the overwhelming majority of us

I am also angered by the cold hard fact that the preachers are not being totally honest about what they truly believe in, why are xtians lying like flatfish with fake, pasty smiles and saying God loves all of us, when it's not true, God is not love if ET really exists, it's a logical impossibility, and what's worse we are forced into this cruel charade just by existing, and there's nothing we can do about it, I'm almost on the verge of a breakdown, I just can't get any peace of mind, no matter how hard I try, why can't people see that nothing else matters in this life, if there is the remotest possibility that this vile and unspeakable fate awaits most of us when we die

Bernie, I'm inclined to agree with most of what you said, it was on ex-christian.net that I came to the realization that I was no longer a christian, however I'm not an unbeliever, the OP pretty much sums up how I feel, as I'm much in the same predicament myself

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s ... =29051&hl=

However I'm not comfortable posting on that forum, I'm also not comfortable posting on a FC forum either (in fact the FC forums are worse, as I'm sure they are the reason that EXC forums exist)



TBH, I'd also rather cease to exist, that is also by far my own personal preference

jfraysse I appreciate what you've posted, however I cannot see an all loving God, it's not because I don't want to, but I've had some of the same experiences as Bernie. And there's just so many verses in the bible that contradict the theory and thought of an all loving God

2 Thesselonians 1v8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

I think UR is wishful thinking, it's a beautiful dream, but I don't believe it's true, as you have to overlook a whole lot of verses that talk about vengeance and judgment, like the one above and what about revelation, I don't see how one gets out of the LOF once one is cast in, I tend to think the bible in it's entirety supports conditional immortality, if ET were true then Romans 6v23 should read, for the wages of sin is eternal life in torment, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord

instead of

Romans 6v23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Forgive me if I've offended anyone, my heart is so heavy, every day for the last 18 months has been a nightmare for me from which I have been unable to find rest from this burden, which has been far far worse than anything I've ever faced in my life, words can't express how I felt a year ago, when I went to a christian councillor because I was troubled about the fate of unbelievers, and she basically told me that God has preplanned in advance who he was going to save before the dawn of time, and the only reason they preach the gospel is because they don't know who God has chosen beforehand, it was for the first time that I saw that churches are built on a foundation of pure lies, and this whole life is nothing but a cruel farce and utter sham

It does give me a glimmer of hope that the Jews don't believe in the concept of ET, logic tells me that christianity should follow on from Judaism, the only difference being is that christians believe that Jesus is the messiah.

For some odd reason I feel more comfortable posting this here, than on the tentmaker forum

Back when I thought I was an xian, my knowledge of the bible was good in that I had studied it purely from an English standpoint. Even in my early days, I wrestled with the concept of hell and all those that never heard and thought I heard a voice in my head saying "let me worry about that, just study.."

I was in an orthodox church the Dutch reformed and primarily joined because of my wife as when our first was born and christened, I was not allowed to answer the pledges. I then went through adult catechism and felt a bit better when the second child came. As the kiddies grew up, wife insisted that we go to church and allow the kids to be "educated" in sunday school so I complied.

Much later there was a tent revival interdenominational meeting and the church approached me to loan my sound equipment, I was also invited to play along and that is how I got involved with the evangelical side of xianity. Then met up with some closet happy clappies in the reformed church and they met every Friday evening at one of the pastor's house - the rest they say is history.

I started an interdenominational church band and we performed at various churches - I then made the mistake of joining the only evangelical charismatic church in town which one of my band members was attending. It was not long before I was drinking the koolaid of hypocrisy and did so for 20+ years.

I assure you my story is far more detailed than that but when I stepped down from the P&W team to be available to take care of my father with Alzheimer's, the so called friends never once made a turn at my home in 7 months even just to pray for me and my family. That was the start of my deconversion. I then discovered UR which resonated better with my POV than ET but ultimately I realised that UR is just another doctrine of men as even in that camp, there is no consensus.

In this time I explored many different "new" concepts and eventually I decided to wipe the slate clean and start all over and study for myself. I then went into the history and discovered that the bible is NOT the word of god and although I still think Jesus was on the money in his teachings, I started to see the errors in the bible and manipulation of texts to form/support a particular doctrine. Calvin's student Arminius essentially came away with the free-will concept in opposition to predestination and to be honest, this was a clincher for me.

How can two people so close come away with so vastly differing POV and doctrines? Then of course came Preterism, Futurisim, Mid Acts or Jesus Words Only and on and on went the lists of doctrines. The most abhorrent is of course American Evangelism aka Southern Baptists aka AOG aka WWCOG. How can so many be so duped?

Holding on by my fingernails, defending a "loving god" I was told in no uncertain terms that I was NOT a christian. Well browsing the ex-xian.net and other sites I saw many had the same observations and questions I had, in fact atheists came across more knowledgeable and tolerant than the evangelical sheeple. I finally accepted their non xian label as I really did not want to be associated with such as bunch of arseholes (friends here excluded) or wear that label anymore.

I realized I am no longer a believer as there really is no evidence outside of the bible and their gawd so awesome and omni-everything cannot make a personal appearance even just once.

IMO you have been well indoctrinated into the shock and awe tactics of the church and their doctrines and deprogramming takes awhile but in the end is liberating. For me there may still be a god but IMO IT is not what the bible espouses and if IT is, well I would rather roast in hell forever and then some than to be in the presence of a schizophrenic dork like the xian gawd. Imagine sharing heaven with all those aforementioned folk I spoke of? Heaven? More like hell w/o fire if you ask me.

As for the NDE stuff, they were not dead and their brains were still functioning. I had visions and dreams when I was an avid church goer but since I tossed all that, it all stopped. Why do you think it says you should renew your mind daily? Keep the program fed and functioning. NDE's are a load of bullshit as most are from folk predisposed to ET in the first place. There are many NDE's of atheists and agnostics where there was nothing.

Think about it, you have decided to not have children so already you have power over god of the OT in that blessing the next generation or cursing the next 4 has stopped with you.

I have told my family that xianity is a load of BS and my kids know I do not beat around the bush. If I had not done the conversion bit, I would maybe still have been a cafeteria believer. The bible convinced me of no god.

It may sound antisemitic but how come there are still only ±6M of the chosen people in the 21st century?

The only difference between and atheist and a believer is that an atheist believes in one less god than a believer.

Sadly the more you study the bible, the further it takes you away from god if you are a logical thinker but I was never a pew warmer and none of the apologetics did it for me.

Even after all this time I can still invoke tongues - it was learned and NOT a gift - just babblespeak like much of the rest of the doctrines of Paul.

Hey QOP27:

Bernie is right – Christianity is mostly BS. The conflict that you feel is the goodness of God’s Spirit within you warring against the lies of Orthodoxy! If it is important, God’s leadings will be plain and simple and from what you have written, I think that they clearly are: Run away!

You are obsessing about hell. It is a severe stumbling block for you. I think you have been presented with some very good reasons why hell is not a real place but you seem driven to accept the Orthodox view no matter what. If you are not willing to accept the arguments of others (and I don’t blame you), simply re-read your own words! They are perhaps the best arguments presented! You must let this false concept go even if you have to think of yourself as an “atheist” to do it.

Personally, I am certain that the schizophrenic “god of the Bible” does not exist. He is man-made for sure. The Biblical hell is also man-made. The Bible is not the word of god. It is the words of ancient men about their perception of “god” – it’s how they wanted god to be. That’s why god has such a conflicted nature – he was made in man’s image!

However, that said, I am NOT willing to throw it all out entirely. I read and study the Bible like any other text and let the wisdom find me, if it is there. I think there are many places in the Bible where the heart of God is present and obvious and I personally think there is great wisdom in these. But obviously, hell and the schizo-god do NOT make the list!

The near death experience (NDE) people you refer to were not brain dead for extended periods of time. Their “heaven and hell” experience was forged from their own culture and belief system. If their experience changed their life for the better – good for them but I don’t accept these as a reliable proof anymore than dreams.

Bottomline, though, it’s up to YOU! You don’t have to listen to old farts like me and perhaps you shouldn’t!

As I said before, God created you with a mind to think, a heart to empathize and His Spirit to lead you in Truth. Always follow them and do not be afraid of where they may take you!

In His Love, John