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jfraysse
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Post subject: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:58 am |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm Posts: 204 Location: Richmond, VA
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Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith!
In the first Chapter of Romans, Paul makes the case that the Gentiles have sinned. In the second, he argues that the Jews have and in the third Chapter he proclaims that everyone is guilty of sin and summarizes in Rom 3:28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” This is the classic Christian Doctrine of being saved by Faith. This is not what bothers me.
Now look at what Paul just finished writing in Rom 2:13 “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” So those who “do” the Law are (or shall be) Justified. Also in Philippians 2:12 Paul writes “… but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” These last two verses are more consistent with the admonishments of Jesus’ brother, James where he writes in James 1:22, ”But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” There no way to escape the fact that “Doing” is important. In fact in Romans 2:14-15 Paul writes concerning the Gentiles, “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, DO by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shows the work of the law written in their (gentile) hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another”. So Paul and others also write that one can be justified by “Doing”.
Ok, Paul, which is it? Faith or Doing (works)?
Paul is generally accepted as the author of "Saved by Faith" but within a few verses of one another, he seems to be confused on this issue.
I have often thought if Paul really wrote the Epistles for which he is given credit and he knew that they would be used to start a New World Religion, he would have been more careful about what he was actually writing!
I know we can all be incoherent at times and I don’t think Paul was any different. Or what Paul wrote could have been modified and the redactors overlooked this little detail.
What do you think? How do you understand these conflicting verses on such a major theological theme?
In His Love, John 
_________________ I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!
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ChuckK3
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:31 am |
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 3:32 am Posts: 63 Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
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John,
I heard one of Gary Amirault's teachings regarding Paul's inconsistency in that he preached salvation by grace, yet kept the law too.
I tend to agree with Gary that Paul, though he taught grace, was in danger of criminal liability if he didn't keep the law. I guess it wasn't Paul's time to walk in the fullness of faith and just buck the law, knowing that the consequence would likely be death.
I practice a part-time business which is not legal, and at the moment is done rather covertly. (No, I don't deal drugs, just in case you're wondering  ) I don't feel any guilt however, and God himself has no problem with what I am doing. I would like to be a little more open with it, but I need to do this rather discreetfully. If the authorities ever catch up with me, I have a course of action ready.
What I am trying to say is that though we walk in total liberty, if we value certain freedoms, it might be in our best interest to either comply, or to do what we want very carefully. Paul said to the Corinthians that "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are convenient". I say the same thing myself. All things are lawful for me too. If I for instance want to rob a bank tomorrow, then I will do so. God will NEVER hold it against me because he through his Son Jesus Christ has redeemed me. However, that doesn't mean that I will escape the criminal justice system. If I'm caught, I will still have to do time in prison, which would not be convenient for me, and perhaps a bit unpleasant.
A month or so ago, I was talking with Johnny 27 about how the disciples may have had more than mere faith, (which could leave room for a lot of doubt), but rather had privy to some knowledge that is not common. It is because of that knowledge that they were able to buck the Roman empire, to the point of their deaths, a death they would freely accept. (An interesting side note, the more the early Christians were martyred, the more people wanted to become Christians. It reached epidemic proportions that threatened the Empire. It is because of this that they invented eternal torment as a means of making people even more scared to die than the people in the Old Testament were, and thus could regain control over the masses. The solution: as always, "Get them when they are children!") Though death had a natural fear attached to it, the spreading of the Gospel was quenching that natural fear, so the evil empires had to invent fear that was totally unnatrual. Well, they apparently have succeeded.
Getting back to the point about Paul being confused as you put it, Paul may not have had enough knowledge to walk in total liberty at the time. When his days were coming to an end, it was then that his boldness increased, to the point where people would think he was plain bravado. Here in the United States, we too have been conditioned by our Godless government, so we become afraid to fight back when the goverment becomes evil. For instance, we are taxed to death, but who is taking a stand against unfair taxes? "No, not us, were SCARED!" Of course you have the brainwashed ones who are convinced an enemy agency will overtake our country if there are no funds in the treasury to assure our national security. The threat of Communism of the 60's through the early 90's comes to mind here (Communism, what a joke! And to think we were afraid of a nation who we thought would attack us in the name of NO GOD AT ALL!  ).
Forgive me for being so long winded, but I can see why Paul would appear confused and even contradict himself.
Chuck
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jfraysse
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:16 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm Posts: 204 Location: Richmond, VA
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Hey Chuck:
I appreciate your insights as always and I definitely agree with you concerning the weight of politics or the Government. (I hope they never git c’ya!  ). I know Paul was no exception!
Frankly, I tend to ignore lots of stuff in the Bible, especially the things that make no sense and this is one of them. I’m allowing Paul (or whoever wrote these words) to be weary of the political system or to have just made a mistake or to have been the victim of another editor sometime later. But, when Fundies use this stuff as a hammer, I get my undies in a knot!
Thanks again, Chuck! Have a great week!
In His Love, John 
_________________ I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!
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loveroftruth
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:19 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am Posts: 373 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:57 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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I have been reading on this this past week.... allow me to share the works of ELM.
Some people feel the Law can never be changed, even to the crossing of a “t” or the dotting of an “i.” Those who believe this will be shocked at what the Bible says. The Law of God can be changed and parts abolished if God so desires. This is Progressive Revelation in action.
To show that the Law of God can be changed, or even abolished, it is necessary to see how historically the Law of God started, developed, and finally became the Old Covenant. We need to see how the Law was changed and altered from time to time from Adam to Noah. It later changed: from Noah to Abraham, again from Abraham to Moses, and from Moses to Samuel, then from Samuel to Ezekiel the prophet, and from Ezekiel to John the Baptist, and finally to Christ before His crucifixion. The former Law of God changed quite often, with additions and/or deletions, throughout the various periods associated with the men just mentioned.
Let's just review the vast differences between the Patriarchal and Mosaic Legal Systems:
• Under the Abrahamic covenant, God allowed his people to offer sacrifices anywhere they pleased (Genesis 12:7, 35:1; Job 1:5). Moses changed this law by commanding only the family of Aaron to attend to the sacred rites (Exodus 40:1–16) and those sacrifices could only be offered on the altar in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12:13–14). • Abraham planted a grove (or sacred tree) in Beersheba (Genesis 21:33), but under Moses the use of groves became prohibited (Exodus 34:14; 2 Chronicles 14:3; Isaiah 17:8). • Jacob set up a pillar (Genesis 28:18), but this was later forbidden by Moses (Deuteronomy 16:22, margin). • God said in the time of Noah: “Every moving thing [i.e., all animals] that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things” (Genesis 9:3), but with Moses only the beasts mentioned in Leviticus chapter 11 were allowed or disallowed. • There were no official feast days commanded in the time of Abraham, but with Moses, ordained festivals became required periods for attendance by all Israelite males (Leviticus 23). • There was no commanded Tithing at first. Tithing was not a law in the patriarchal period. 2 • None of the patriarchs wore phylacteries ( at least we have no record of such), but with Moses their use was commanded (Numbers 15:37–41). • The land did not have to rest every 7th year under the patriarchs (Genesis 41:34–35), but with Moses, the land rest was commanded (Leviticus 25:1–7). • Abraham married his half-sister with God’s full approval (Genesis 20:12), but this became illegal in the time of Moses (Leviticus 20:17). • Abraham was confederate with his Canaanite neighbors (Genesis 14:13), but no leagues with the Canaanites were allowed in the dispensation of Moses. Indeed, the Canaanites were to be exterminated (Deuteronomy 20:17–18). • There was also no commanded Sabbath law in the patriarchal period. However, in the time of Moses the Sabbath was first introduced as a law for Israelites to obey (Exodus 20:8; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12) with stringent requirements that changed the very character of the 7th day of the week. Moses had now emerged on the scene and a profound change in religious essentials had come into existence for Israel.
The differences between the religious system of the patriarchs and that of Moses were dramatic. If a religious Israelite after the time of Moses could have been transported back to Abraham’s time and witnessed Abraham (not knowing who he was) performing his religious duties, he would have called him an unconverted heathen. And though it is made clear in the Scriptures that God knew Abraham “obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws” (Genesis 26:5), those laws (the Law of God in Abraham’s time) were very different from those later laws commanded to Moses and to the Israelites at Mount Sinai.
Indeed, for Abraham’s first 99 years of life he was not circumcised,
And later • he built altars anywhere he pleased, • he raised up groves, • he offered no lamb at Passover, • he kept no weekly Sabbath, • he attended no holy feasts, • he wore no phylacteries, • he married his half-sister, • kept no land sabbath [that is, no Sabbatical Years], and of all things... • he was allied with the Canaanites.
What God did in the time of Moses was to rescind the religious requirements of the Patriarchal period in favor of stricter laws ordained in the time of Moses. The two religious systems were so completely different that if one were to mix the teachings together, utter contradiction and confusion would result. There is no compatibility at all between the two systems.
To be continued!
Paul
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:14 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.
“Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in the book, and laid it up before the Lord.” 1 Samuel 10:25
Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).
Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing. Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. “Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God” (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)
“For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17
The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a “second Moses” with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.
“The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.’ And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” Deuteronomy 18:15–19
“The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he (Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” Isaiah 42:21
Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' Mat 5:22 In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.
“Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in the book, and laid it up before the Lord.” 1 Samuel 10:25
Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).
Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing. Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. “Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God” (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)
“For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17
The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a “second Moses” with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.
“The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.’ And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” Deuteronomy 18:15–19
“The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he (Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” Isaiah 42:21
Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 "Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent. 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into geenna. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into geenna. 31 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Indeed, God's Messiah came to magnify the Law! And so He did! ;)
Peace, Paul
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:20 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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These teachings of our Lord were so severe, and more stringent than the simple statements of the Ten Commandments, that they led one to hopelessness in trying to keep them. But it did not stop with the first commands. It went further. If one looked longingly on a woman (or man) to lust after her (him), the person was adjudged as committing adultery (Matthew 5:28). President Carter at the beginning of his presidency was not the only one to acknowledge openly that he committed this kind of adultery. It occurs to every normal person unless certain glands have been removed. Hardly anyone has escaped breaking Christ’s interpretation on this matter. And look at the harshness of punishment for this type of adultery. The right eye was ordered to be plucked out (Matthew 5:29) or the right hand cut off (verse 30). This surgery of part of the anatomy was to prevent all the body being destroyed in Gehenna fire.
But the severity does not end there. Whereas divorce under Moses was allowed for most human weaknesses which were judged reasonable by the courts (Deuteronomy 24:1–3), Christ’s teachign was much more strict (Matthew 5:23, 32). It was so severe that even the disciples responded: “it is good not to marry” (Matthew 19:10). The disciples were simply amazed at Christ’s strict teaching.
These new interpretations of Christ were vast changes to the meaning of the Laws given to Moses. They went far beyond simple obedience to law as understood by Jewish theologians. With Christ’s new interpretation, if someone were to be awarded your coat at law, you were also required to give him your cloak (Matthew 5:40). When compelled to go one mile, you had to go two ((verse 40). And if smitten on the cheek, the other cheek had to be subjected to abuse (verse 39). There were no “ifs, and or buts” to these requirements, which Christ insisted that people must keep. They went far beyond the normal limits of law, whether the law was that of Moses or any of our normal laws today.
The truth is, these new interpretations that Christ gave were so far beyond the ordinary capability of man to observe (whether the laws were of God or man) that no human could possibly on all occasions keep them. This is a fact that no sensible person can deny. Yet, when a young man came to Christ and asked Him what must be done in order to attain eternal [age-lasting] life, Christ said “If you will enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:16–17). Christ meant to keep His commandments, not simply in the Mosaic way but in the manner Christ interpreted them. Though the man said he had observed the normal (Mosaic) meaning of the commandments, he still failed the test of perfection demanded by Christ because he coveted is goods, and refused to sell them and follow Christ (verses 18–22).
The point is, how many of us are capable of keeping these high spiritual teachings of Christ in regard to law? While Elizabeth, Zechariah, Paul were reckoned as “blameless” in observing Moses’ law, no one could possibly say that they kept perfectly the strict interpretations that Christ Jesus put on the law. This over-strictness is reflected throughout the whole of Matthew’s Gospel. Note this point. The Scribes and Pharisees kept the law more scrupulously than any other group (they observed the Mosaic requirements well), but Christ demanded much more of His people.
“Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20
Why, then, did Christ give us such rigorous interpretations when He knew they could not be kept? It is very simple. It was to increase peoples’ transgressions and show that no one can possibly gain salvation by trying to keep any law. Christ went so far as to make the law so stern that no one could possibly observe it perfectly. And while the apostle Paul stated that the law of Moses had been given “for the purpose of producing transgressions” (Galatians 3:19, Moffatt translation), when Christ came along, following the precedent of Moses, He increased the resultant transgressions tenfold with His above-normal requirements. Of course, Christ had the power to insist on such stringent disciplines if He so pleased. But again, why did He do so?
As stated before, Christ was making the law so impossible to observe in a perfect sense, that there was no chance of anyone being called “blameless” again. He did this in order to direct people to the need of a Savior (Himself) who was to manifest Himself to the earth. And Christ poured on laws upon laws (and extremely stringent ones) that no ordinary human could even begin to keep.
All through Christ’s ministry while He was in the flesh, he emphasized only one way to gain salvation. It was through obedience to law. But when man witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ (and the sending of the Holy Spirit), a whole new method of gaining salvation was introduced to the earth. Something different from the observance of laws was brought into existence. A new standard of righteousness was introduced. It was given to those who expressed a faith and love in Christ, a reliance on His blood as the sole means for obtaining the Kingdom of God and a salvation that accompanied the promise of the Kingdom.
Thus, through the whole of the ministry of Christ while in the flesh, He insisted on law keeping as the only way to salvation. But this insistence on law (and on a over-strict interpretation of it) represented a conclusion to the Mosaic system; the Law of Moses made even more stringent with Christ’s superlative additions. This shows that Christ’s teaching to the Jews in Palestine was not the beginning of the Christian system in which salvation was awarded through faith, not through law. This first phase of Christ’s teachings shows a deficiency in the message that Christ taught to the Jews (a deficiency intended by God). It shows a great difference between the first teachings of Christ and those taught later by the apostles. Christ’s message of law before His crucifixion was intended to be replaced by something better; replaced by the final teachings of Christ that had grace as the means of salvation. But before Christ’s crucifixion, it was all LAW, LAW and more LAW!
Paul
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:50 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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The apostle Paul in the totality of his Gospel message referred only one time to any teaching that Christ taught in the flesh. That was a reference to the bread and wine that symbolized Christ’s death on the eve of His crucifixion (1 Corinthians 11:23–34).
Not once did Paul use as a basis for his Gospel any other statement or commandment that Christ made or presented to the Jews while in the flesh. Paul made a point that when Christ taught the Jews within the Old Covenant relationship (before His death, burial, resurrection, and glorification), this former message about “commandment keeping” as the only means to salvation had no bearing on the Christian Gospel that Paul taught. Paul stated dogmatically: “Wherefore henceforth [with Christ’s death and resurrection] know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.” 2 Corinthians 5:16
Research in progress! Paul
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jfraysse
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:32 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm Posts: 204 Location: Richmond, VA
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Brother Paul: I appreciate your dedication and expertise and I know your heart is pure, so please do not be offended by what I’m about to say for it is just my opinion about this topic and not an attack on you or your POV. Look how convoluted this single topic has become and unfortunately there are many more that are just as complicated. I don’t buy God having to “Change His mind” or progressively reveal His Truth or His desires. This makes absolutely no sense to me other than to prove that this issue is unimportant. For if it WAS important, God would have made it clear to all people for all time. If God has imperative Truths to convey to His Creation, then they must be Clear, Universal and Timeless. Clearly, the works verses faith issue is none of these. God should not be the author of confusion nor a respecter of persons nor a breaker of His own rules. These are the trespasses of men – ancient men who fashioned God in their image with very man-like vices – Loving at times, Politically Correct when convenient but then tyrannical, evil and capricious when necessary to illicit fear and control. I know some think the “scriptures” are perfect and, in many places, I think they do reveal the heart of our Father, but in almost every Orthodox doctrinal aspect of Christianity there is a significant, credible antithesis. Why isn’t the Faith v Works issue simple if it is important? I conclude that it is not and this is just another reason why I’m an universalist. In His Love, John (looking for undeniable Fruits) 
_________________ I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:02 am |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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jfraysse wrote: Brother Paul: I appreciate your dedication and expertise and I know your heart is pure, so please do not be offended by what I’m about to say for it is just my opinion about this topic and not an attack on you or your POV. Look how convoluted this single topic has become and unfortunately there are many more that are just as complicated. I don’t buy God having to “Change His mind” or progressively reveal His Truth or His desires. This makes absolutely no sense to me other than to prove that this issue is unimportant. For if it WAS important, God would have made it clear to all people for all time. If God has imperative Truths to convey to His Creation, then they must be Clear, Universal and Timeless. Clearly, the works verses faith issue is none of these. God should not be the author of confusion nor a respecter of persons nor a breaker of His own rules. These are the trespasses of men – ancient men who fashioned God in their image with very man-like vices – Loving at times, Politically Correct when convenient but then tyrannical, evil and capricious when necessary to illicit fear and control. I know some think the “scriptures” are perfect and, in many places, I think they do reveal the heart of our Father, but in almost every Orthodox doctrinal aspect of Christianity there is a significant, credible antithesis. Why isn’t the Faith v Works issue simple if it is important? I conclude that it is not and this is just another reason why I’m an universalist. In His Love, John (looking for undeniable Fruits)  Not to worry, Won’t hurt my feelings! It only research. However, It has nothing to do with “God changing His mind” It all about God’s plan unfolding, as in Progressive Revelation.
The problem is I only posted the setup, and not Paul’s part of the research. I need to go back and reread the information so I can put it together. My bad! I’m putting in 52 hours in 4 days at work this week!
I’m more surprised you did not get on to me for not addressing Paul first as this is what the thread is about. I only wanted to set up how the law was given first. Sorry about the poor presentation. Maybe I can make it clearer.
Your initial post is correct in that it does appear Paul is confused on the issue. However, ELM has some good stuff to say on the topic. I’m not suggesting he has it all worked out, but brings up some good points.
Look at my post as data on this subject … not as doctrine
Paul
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jfraysse
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:18 am |
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 11:19 pm Posts: 204 Location: Richmond, VA
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WoW, Paul!  Get some rest - all this can wait! (But I am interested when you can get to it!) Thanks! In His Love, John 
_________________ I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:57 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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The Gospel of Christ is the message that leads one to salvation. It shows the essential steps one must take to secure the goal that God wishes all to attain. That objective is not merely for us to be saved from something. God wishes us to be saved to something.
The central truth of it concerns Jesus Christ. It involves the reason for His life, His death, His resurrection, and His present existence. The Bible speaks of Imputation both in the Old and New Testaments, but the doctrine is given full discussion in the writings of Paul. We recognize what the word “Imputation” signifies. It is the noun form of the verb “to impute.” Which means “to attribute, to ascribe, or to lay to the charge of.” Any major dictionary defines the biblical meaning as “attribution of one person’s righteousness or guilt to another.” In simple language, it means to place the merits or the demerits of one person to the account of another.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Not only were the sins and the punishment for sins imputed to Christ on our behalf, something else was imputed to us through the efforts and example of Christ Jesus. The fact is, the righteousness that Christ had while here on earth throughout His life can be imputed to you, me, and all in the world through our acceptance of Christ and His substitutionary role on our behalf. Christ came not only to die for us, He also came to live for us. While on this earth He lived a sinless life. He obeyed the Father precisely. He performed all that God ever demanded of any human and in His perfect performance He was totally accepted by God.
Throughout the Bible, God informs all people that His commandments must be obeyed for righteousness’ sake — and they must be obeyed precisely (Deuteronomy 32:46; Matthew 5:19). No one can enter into the resurrected life of the spirit unless he shows an active righteousness by keeping all the commandments. Christ himself taught, “If you will enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
Yet we all fail to walk perfectly in the ways of God. No man has ever kept the commandments of God and shown absolute righteousness in daily life, whether he was a person of the Old Testament or one of the New. “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Yet, a strict performance of God’s commandments is necessary to get salvation. Note this point. Not only were our sins taken away from us and the punishment for those sins endured by Christ, but the important aspect of Imputation also involved the placement of Christ’s perfect righteousness on the head of every Christian.
The fact is, we are all in the same human condition with Paul, the great apostle of our faith. Not one of us comes close to being moderately righteous, no matter how good we appear to be on the surface.
Since righteousness is demanded of God, how do we receive it? Paul tells us plainly how it is obtained. It is through faith (belief). It is by having faith in God. “Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Yes, Abraham received righteousness by exercising belief. Paul called belief in Christ a “righteousness of faith” (Romans 10:6). But whose faith really counts in granting us salvation? Is it our faith? Is it our own belief? Paul said it is not our own faith that gives salvation. It is the faith of Christ. Only the faith of Christ has the power to save you, me, and all mankind. And while we are told to express faith on numerous occasions in the New Testament it is not our own faith that is efficacious in God’s granting of salvation to us. Let us look at our personal faith for a moment.
Personal faith is important, but it has a problem. Though human faith is a precious possession, and though it produces a measure of righteousness that God will accept, it still cannot produce a perfect righteousness! It cannot be perfect because our own faiths are not perfect. The righteousness that personal faith produces is not the faultless “righteousness of God” that we must possess, the righteousness that God has. We must have spotless purity, perfect holiness, and absolute righteousness. Can our own faith, no matter how strong, produce these virtues? How can it when we are constantly saying to God, as did the apostles, “Increase our faith” (Luke 17:5). We must look elsewhere for the faith that will grant us “the righteousness of God” to have a perfect holiness.
“Knowing that man is not DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ ... not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no person be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.”(Galatians 2:16)
God DECLARES US RIGHTEOUS, even when we are not!
Paul makes it plain. It is possible for people to be reckoned as righteous, but only through the application of the obedience of Christ being imputed to us — not through our own works. This is why Paul said that righteousness comes to man as a gift. It is “the gift of righteousness” (Romans 5:17). All gifts, by the very nature of things, are free. And that is what Paul insists the procurement of righteousness is. “The free gift of many offenses unto justification” (Romans 5:16). Even the faith that we have to be saved is a free gift.
“For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8–9)
Justification shows that Christians are now declared righteous by God — but not by their own works. Our justification comes as a free gift from God. Let us now substitute the true meaning of Paul by rendering ”to justify” by [i]“to declare righteous.” Note what Paul said,
“BEING DECLARED RIGHTEOUS freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24
The Bible states that you and I must keep God’s commandments perfectly if we hope to be saved and one day be in the paradise of God. All God’s just requirements must be met in the life of a human or he will never stand in the presence of God. In a word, there must be an active and perfect holiness in every human’s life. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14). This necessity of possessing holiness is a recurrent one in the Bible. In this strict requirement, humanity has a problem. The Bible shows quite clearly that no human is righteous in God’s eyes. No matter how many good deeds one has performed, all of us have come short of practicing righteousness. because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20
The apostle Paul went even further in appraising himself (and the rest of us). He called himself “the chiefest of sinners” ( and gave his judgment about himself in the present tense, not the past).
Part 1of 2 Paul
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:14 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Part 2 of 2… Note what Paul said of himself,
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (Romans 7:14–17)
Rom 7:18 “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.” (Romans 7:18)
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. (Romans 7:21–23)
I don’t know about you but I feel these verses could have been written about myself. Paul admitted he was nothing but a carnal minded person and that the carnality part of him usually won the day in any decision he might make in doing right or wrong. Not only did Paul, according to his own testimony, say he leaned toward carnality in his natural thinking, he said that his actions showed utter fleshliness of mind in most of the things that he did. As a matter of fact, Paul said that he often did the very unrighteous things that he did not want to do. He also said he was so weak in natural character that he did not do the righteous things that he thought he should do. And these faults were in evidence in Paul’s life as late as the time he wrote the Book of Romans, some 25 years after his conversion and being called to be an apostle of Christ.
So How does Paul deal with these issues of … “for I am not practicing what I would Like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.”?
Paul simply turned the whole matter over to Christ to resolve, and then he had the simple faith to believe that God would honor his request. Paul stated: “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord [for deliverance from such evaluations of myself]. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” (Romans 7:25)
Paul did not let the fact of his sins (that he committed daily) worry him in his overall disposition toward God the Father and Christ Jesus. He knew he was by nature a sinner like the rest of humanity, but when he prayed to God, he prayed as a righteous person petitioning God. Paul knew that since he was now reckoned by the Father to be “in Christ,” that made him a sinless person in the eyes of God
Remember… God Declares us righteous, even when we are not! Paul learned that just because he served the law of sin in his flesh (and he remained flesh until the day he died, of course), he was reckoned to be delivered by God because with the mind he served the law of God. Because of the merits of Jesus Christ (and our being “in Christ” ), God looks on each of us as being as sinless as Jesus is sinless, even though we are still sinners and will continue to be until our deaths in the flesh. Note what John taught:
“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his [God’s] seed [sperm] remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)
The rest of his epistle to the Romans tells how he obtained (along with us) that perfect righteousness in Christ Jesus. Paul found an optimistic way out of the problems of sin that plagued him and he told us how we could obtain the same release and deliverance. He simply placed his sins on the back of Christ and then he forgot they existed in his being. He had no need to be remorseful over his sins (either past sins, present sins, or even future ones). The fact is, the Father does not reckon any of us “in Christ” as having sins. We are all as free of sins as is our Elder Brother, Christ Jesus. Indeed, I will soon show that we have no laws over us that we can break.
The works of E.L.M. Paul
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Pierac
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Post subject: Re: Paul Seems Confused about Works and Faith Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:37 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm Posts: 195 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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In the first 33 years of teaching the Gospel of Christ Jesus about His death and resurrection now being able to bring people to salvation, that salvation in Christ was ONLY given to people who were of the House of Israel.
Jews within the Roman and Parthian Empires who lived at the time were certainly of the tribe of Judah who were a part of the House of Israel. It meant that salvation could be given to them, but it could not be given to Gentiles IF THEY REMAINED GENTILES! In the 33 years of time that elapsed from Christ’s crucifixion in 30 to 63 C.E., it was necessary for all Gentiles who were saved in Christ to become spiritual Israelites. The New Covenant relationship with God was given only to those who were members of the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31–34). Note what the clear word of God states: “Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord’: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:31–34
As clear as God could make it, the New Covenant was to be made only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is not one mention in this New Covenant relationship about participation of Gentiles who were not Israelites. And what did this lack of mention concerning Gentiles mean to the apostle Paul? He made it clear that salvation in Christ could only be given to the children of Israel and no other nation. Note what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2: “Wherefore remember [you Gentiles], that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise [both Old and New Covenants], having no hope, and without God in the world.” Ephesians 2:11–12
Paul made it clear in the above statement, which was absolutely true and accurate, that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles, there was not a hope in the world for them to gain a salvation in Christ. They were those “having no hope.” Remember, the Old and New Covenants were made only with the House of Israel and if one was not an Israelite then such persons were “strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world.” This was a terrible plight for Gentiles to be in, but this was their fate. Simply put, Gentiles could not be saved.
However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites. And Paul, in the four epistles to the first three ekklesias (the congregations in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians) taught that all Gentiles who accepted Christ as their personal Savior were now reckoned to be “in Christ” (Romans 12:5, 16:7, 9–10; 1 Corinthians 3:1, 15:22; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 3:14, 5:17; Galatians 3:27). Putting Gentiles “in Christ” gave them an advantage they had not realized before. Since Christ was clearly reckoned in a legal sense to be from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob’s name was changed to Israel), then Gentiles now attached to Christ were no longer acknowledged as “Gentiles” in a spiritual sense. They had now become “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).
“For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs [along with Israelites] according to the promise.” Galatians 3:26–29
Similarly, Paul said in Romans 11:13–36 that the Gentiles being “in Christ” (and Christ was an Israelite in whom there was no guile and a legitimate son of Abraham) made them also to be children of Abraham and Israel as was Christ or any natural born Israelite. And since it was clearly understood by Paul that “all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26), this of necessity included the Gentiles who accepted Christ and were grafted into Israel. Thus, these Gentile converts were no longer reckoned as Gentiles. They were now “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).
This was how the Gentiles could become partakers of all promises and covenants that pertained to the Israelites. This grafting into the stock of Israel made them able to be heirs of the New Covenant relationship that God was making only with Israel.
A Major Problem Developed with this Concept
While this spiritual teaching that Gentiles were now “in Christ” denominated them as being Israel along with the other Israelites, a question quickly arose concerning the required conduct of these new Israelites. Should they be circumcised as were ordinary Israelites? Should they keep the days, times, seasons, and years that all Jews observed and rejoiced in? Should these new “Israelites” be required to eat the clean foods found in Leviticus chapter 11? Some Christian authorities, especially those in Jerusalem, felt that if the Gentiles were now going to be acknowledged as “Israelites,” then it was only common sense they should adopt the same customs as the Jews. This included circumcision, Sabbath, and holyday keeping, the clean food laws, etc. This matter had to be worked out and we find much argument about it in the Books of Acts and Galatians (along with Second Corinthians chapters 11 and 12). In other words, should the Gentiles (now “Israelites”) keep the Law of God revealed in the Old Testament and sustained by Christ while teaching in the flesh, or could the Gentiles be given some kind of special relationship different from ordinary Jews? This was the dilemma. What laws and customs should the Gentiles (now “Israelites”) observe?
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