I know this is a topic that has been dealt with a thousand times before, but I have a desire to talk about this. You the reader will have to bear with me I as talk about this, because this is coming from my simplistic understanding of such a huge subject. That subject is the Omniscience of God and Human Free Will, here goes.

From my 26 years of human experience I have always thought that humans had free will. Lately though in my life from articles I have read on websites that are linked to this forum. I have come to the conclusion that human beings don't have a free will. What I'm about to write may seem anti-God, but it is not I have nothing against God I'm just pointing out the obvious. Everything in your life has been preplanned by God, you have had no choice in your life what so ever. Everything that has happened in the past of your life, is happening in your life, and is about to happen in your life was planned by God. I know human beings can't see in the future, so they will think they have a choice. Yet, the future is already known by God, so you don't have a choice it is already set in stone for you. As it says in Isiah - "I am the Lord Your God I create both good and evil", God is responsible for all the evil in the world, not us. I know that sounds sacrilegious, but I'm not trying to be. God is love and loves us all, but the question I have to ask is WHY? Why would God allow you to make mistakes, why would God allow their to be child molesters, rapists, and the most corrupt evils you could ever imagine. God is behind all of this, not us look at the story of Job. In orthodox Judeo-Christianity even though God knows all and you make a sin, it is your fault not God's. Orthodox Christians will teach that, because of "Free-Will" it's your fault for the sins in the world, even though God knew ahead time that these sins were going to happen. Also, because of this Free-Will we have to make a choice for God, even though God knows if we're going to make this choice or not. If someone could help me get a better understanding of this subject, because currently I feel lost at this paradigm I have. I feel there is something very wrong with the current orthodox Christian paradigm, and see the Universal Reconciliation to be the truth. Since God is responsible for everything and God knows all things, if God doesn't save all of the human race then that makes God a sadist. God is not a sadist, God is love! If any of you guys could give your input or advice on this subject, I would love it and thanks for taking the time to read this subject.

Zero Fly,

This is a great subject that you have "chosen" to discuss. This is also a huge subject. I like very much how you pose your question. You are very clear what disturbs you about this whole issue of free will.

First of all I agree with you - that we absolutely have no free will. And the reason why I believe this is to be the case is that God to be God has to be in control of everything - simply put! Everything operates according to His will Eph 1:11. I notice that you use the word "allows"events to occur. IMO - God causes all things to happen at a precise time and in a precise way even though they may be very evil. This is a very spiritually mature subject, indeed!

Romans 9: 14~23 shows it is the right of the master potter to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour. It is all within the domain of God. Now for the really hard part - why does He do it that way? I do not know the complete answer to this to say the least. But it goes somewhat like this. God wants humans to have a full range of experiences that consists of both good and evil. He chooses to use this method to teach us things. As opposed to what the "churches" think that He is trying to. When you do something that is wrong that you hate - you learn from this experience. And you should be a better person for having had that experience. The "churches" teach that God is out to GET you when you sin. And God is so surprised and shocked at the whole thing and can't wait to punish you. To me this describes a very stupid and limited God that is totally ignorant of all that goes on around Him!!!

But because God is in control the purpose of sin and evil is to teach us - very much like a tool that shapes the clay of which we are made. This is a very short response to your letter - but I hope it sets the tone of this very curious action that God employs in the lives of all us humans.

John

I agree, all the traditional organized church does is teach through fear and guilt, what these churches have been doing weather knowingly or unknowingly is leading all those who might get caught up in their clutches into the way of self righteousness and take their money and time away from them spent serving in church propaganda pushing programs at the same time. What? give your money to turn around and also bust your behind to work serving church programs? No thanks! Religion and Politics are all a part of the system of this world, Christ sets us free from this yoke of bondage.

Fire Walker

You have said EXACTLY what has been on my mind for weeks, logically Universal Reconciliation makes the most sense , the orthodox church/theologians have become masters of devising ways to pin the blame solely on mankind

Fire Walker,

What you say is so true. If God's plan of Ultimate salvation were not true and that salvation depended upon the deeds of humans - no one would be saved - period. Even the goodie type people - who would not say crap if they had a mouth full of it - because they would be guilty of self righteousness. This is the way we were made. And God is aware of this absolutely. I find there is great peace in this when I really look at myself and see how incredibly imperfect I am, indeed! We are all very blessed as humans to understand that God is deliberately subjecting us to a process that has been worked out thoroughly and percisely before our creation. Of which the results of are very good - even though evil is used in that process! God meant it for good - as with Joseph and of course for all of us. This is the wisdom of God and who can challenge it?

John

I want to thank everyone who has taken time to reply to my thread. Your posts have all been great, Johnny 27 I'm glad that you brought up that particular chapter of Romans. I started reading it and this sense of understanding came through me and felt like reading the other chapters in the book of Romans. Through reading these chapters I found verses, and sections that show how wrong the current orthodox Christian paradigm of Free-will really is. We live in a predestined universe of God's love where God is going to save the whole human race. First, I want to quote an article I read when doing research on Chapter 9 of Romans, and what I found was a particularly interesting analysis of that chapter. Certain sections in that I find of importance will be in bold. The thing is this article is from a website that is associated with CARM, so bear with me

Romans 9 and Predestination
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/romans9.htm
Copyright by Matthew J. Slick, B.A., M. Div., 1998-2006



I know that in the Tentmaker forum there is a whole section on CARM and how the individual Matt Slick doesn't support Universal Reconciliation. Yet, if you look at that article and the parts that are in bold isn't it ironic, that those parts support Universal Reconciliation. Since God is omniscient there can be no free-will, because this would be a contradiction. How can you make a choice that God doesn't know about if he is omniscient; that is an impossibility. Look at the last section of this article that I have in bold and see what it is saying. "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will." That is a beautiful verse, if anybody knows what one it is I would love to have it. As you can see from just that one verse God is going to save the whole human race, because of his OMNISCIENCE. It has nothing to do with you or I, it has to do with Jesus Christ. When we look at the situation in the Garden of Eden, was God ignorant of the fact of that Adam and Eve were going to sin; absolutely not! What is interesting is that the reason Adam and Eve sinned was, because they were doing a "good" act. They weren't trying to rebel against God, they were trying to do righteous unto God. Yet, because of their ignorance they sinned against God. God is omnipresent and there can be nothing outside of God, so there can be no goodness outside of God. All righteousness is unto God and is of God, and if we are not of God then we are not righteous. Look at this section of Romans Chapter 2 vs 9 - 18 -



This philosophy of free-will when you really look at it is satanic. It teaches that man can be righteous of his own merit and not of any higher authority. It also gives man the right to commit any evil he wants, because he is free to do whatever he wants. Since he is free and doesn't have to obey any authority. This is one of the reasons why God made the situation in the Garden of Eden to happen. To show to the human race that free-will is wrong, because if men are free to do as they want, then they will commit ever egregious act imaginable. As we have all seen through history and the present hour this fact is true. It is God that preordained this fact, not us. In our current understanding we think all the evil people in the world should burn in hell, of course when we make that judgment we don't personally think we are evil. The truth is we are all evil as Romans Chapter 2 shows. Why? because God preordained us to be sinners check out Romans Chapter 8 vs 18 - 21



As we see from this section that God in his OMNISCIENCE decided this for a positive reason, all this pain, suffering, and evil is for the glory of the Lord. Here is another beautiful verse in the book of Romans, that expresses this fact:



We also think through this evil doctrine of free-will that we are capable of fixing ourselves. That through our free-will we can become civilized or "God-like". This doctrine is a lie look out in the world and see all the awful depravity that exists in it. I know that I am a depraved person. The reason that God preordained evil, is to make us realise that only through Jesus Christ can we become better. Only through the cross and his blood can we become righteous people. Only Jesus Christ can stop any addiction, only Jesus Christ can stop violence and unjust anger, only Jesus Christ can stop all the evil in the world. Why? because God preordained that way, because he is OMNISCIENT and he is LOVE!

Zero Fly,

IMO - you now possess one of the most powerful truths in the universe. That God is ALMIGHTY. He is not like man or any of His creation. He is without a beginnig or end - he is eternal. There is no comparison between God and anything that is a creation of HIS - ISA 40:25. This is the ultimate in understanding and a very big part of Who God is. The other main part is that His is the ONE and ONLY true GOD - as Christ describes!!! John 17:3 - The councillor churches are without this KEY knowledge - great stuff Zero Fly.

John

I think people here may be reacting a little harshly to the idea of free will. I don't believe in free will personally, but please keep in mind that there are many very good people who do, including Universalists. And more importantly, keep in mind that God created our minds to perceive life this way. Our ideas of how love, law, responsibility and many other concepts revolve around this illusion that we are autonomous beings.

Furthermore, God talks to us from within that framework in "the" Bible constantly. "CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve." Every exhortation is predicated on our perception of choice.


As to the opening post and the question about why God would make rapists and murderers do their thing... I think there is only one logical explanation that maintains His total Goodness. And that is that the coming life is so glorious that the pain of the rape victim and the abused is utterly compensated for and washed away.

I've often said that Calvinism leads to universalism although Calvinism on it's own is the ugliest thing imaginable (God predestinating eternal damnation). When folks get a hold on the obvious truth of predestination then they must accept that:

A. God has His good reasons for creating people who are predestined to be tormented forever or:

B. Realize that God could not possibly make a plan so sinister and begin searching deeper.

The next big step away from orthodoxy is to realize that everything is actually a part of God (Panentheism).

http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php

I've often said that Calvinism leads to universalism although Calvinism on it's own is the ugliest thing imaginable (God predestinating eternal damnation). When folks get a hold on the obvious truth of predestination then they must accept that:

A. God has His good reasons for creating people who are predestined to be tormented forever or:

B. God could not possibly make a plan so sinister and begin searching deeper.

The next big step away from orthodoxy is to realize that everything is actually a part of God (Panentheism).

See more info here: http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php

Do we “really, really, and truly” have “free” will/choice?

“For the Son of Man has come to SEEK and to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 (We don’t do the seeking - He does - see Romans 3:11 below).

“THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD.” - Romans 3:11 (seeking occurs and is compelled by Him after salvation - not before)

“For by Him ALL things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - ALL things have been created through Him and for Him - Colossians 1:16 - and among the ALL things that God created is evil which He uses for good in fulfilling His plan and purpose: “I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things” - Isaiah 45:7 (KJV), “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL.” - Proverbs 16:4.

If man was aware of God’s purpose in His use of evil, he would attempt not to act on it - “we speak of God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for IF THEY HAD UNDERSTOOD IT, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY” - 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 (Praise God for the use of His creation of evil for good to accomplish Christ’s finished work at the cross)

“For the creation was subjected to futility, NOT WILLINGLY, but BECAUSE OF HIM WHO SUBJECTED IT” - Romans 8:20

“For GOD HAS shut up ALL in disobedience so that HE MAY show mercy to ALL- Romans 11:32. No one is born with the freedom or “choice” not to sin - we sin because we are born sinners (bearing that label before we’ve even had a chance to sin), having inherited Adam’s sin nature - see Romans 5:12-14: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned – for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him Who was to come.”

No one speaks and it comes to pass, UNLESS THE LORD HAS COMMANDED IT. It is FROM THE MOUTH OF THE MOST HIGH that only BOTH GOOD AND EVIL GO FORTH. No living mortal, or any man, should offer complaint in view of his sins (Lam. 3:37-39).

Satan is God’s tool, created by Him to be an instrument of evil “from the beginning” - “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING ...” - John 8:44a; “the one who practices sin is the devil; for the devil has sinned FROM THE BEGINNING ...” - 1 John 3:8

ADAM’S SIN WAS NO SURPRISE TO GOD - THE PLAN FOR THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST WAS IN PLACE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD - If Adam and Eve had moral freedom to choose obedience, why did God have the way of the cross arranged before their creation? “But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" - I Pet. 1:19-20.

Adam was created a vessel of common use (dishonor): “Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR COMMON USE?” - Romans 9:21

“This Man, delivered over by the PREDETERMINED PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, you nailed to the cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death - Acts 2:23 (a most wonderful example of God using His creation of evil for good - using the evil in men’s hearts to fulfill His plan and purpose to redeem mankind)

“HE CHOSE US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him” - Ephesians 1:4

“Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? - Isaiah 10:15

“Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were ALL written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them” - Psalm 139:16 (NASB translation); “You saw me before I was born and SCHEDULED EACH DAY OF MY LIFE BEFORE I BEGAN TO BREATHE. Every day was recorded in Your book!” - Psalm 139:16 (tlb translation)

God does not change His mind - “Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for HE IS NOT A MAN that He should change His mind” - 1 Samuel 15:29

GOD’S WILL CANNOT BE THWARTED - Job 42:2

“For the LORD OF HOSTS HAS PLANNED, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back? - Isaiah 14:27

“Lord, YOU will establish peace for us, since YOU HAVE ALSO PERFORMED FOR US ALL OUR WORKS.” - Isaiah 26:12

“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘MY PURPOSE WILL BE ESTABLISHED, And I WILL ACCOMPLISH ALL MY GOOD PLEASURE’; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country, Truly I have spoken; truly I WILL BRING IT TO PASS. I HAVE PLANNED IT, SURELY I WILL DO IT. - Isaiah 46:9-11

“So will my word be which goes forth from my mouth; it will not return to me empty, without ACCOMPLISHING WHAT I DESIRE, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.” - Isaiah 55:11

“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing. But HE DOES ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; And NO ONE CAN WARD OFF HIS HAND OR SAY TO HIM, “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?’” - Daniel 4:35

“And I will put my Spirit within you and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to obey my ordinances.” - Ezekiel 36:27

“For I the Lord will speak, and WHATEVER WORD I SPEAK WILL BE PERFORMED..” Ezekiel 12:15

“GOD HAS PUT IT IN THEIR HEARTS to execute HIS PURPOSE by having a common purpose ... - Revelation 17:17

“The lot is cast into the lap, But its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD.” - Proverbs 16:33

“I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, NOR IS IT IN A MAN WHO WALKS TO DIRECT HIS STEPS..” - Jeremiah 10:23

“The mind of man plans his way, but THE LORD DIRECTS HIS STEPS” - Proverbs 16:9

“Many plans are in a man’s heart, but THE COUNSEL OF THE LORD WILL STAND.” - Proverbs 19:21

“The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; HE TURNS IT WHEREVER HE WISHES.” - Proverbs 21:1

“Man’s steps are ORDAINED BY THE LORD ...” - Proverbs 20:24a

“The steps of a man are ESTABLISHED BY THE LORD” - Psalm 37:23a

“But our God is in the heavens; HE DOES WHATEVER HE PLEASES - Psalm 115:9

Pharaoh was created as a vessel of dishonor to fulfill God’s plan and purpose. “For He says to Moses, ‘I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.’ So then it DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE MAN WHO WILLS or THE MAN WHO RUNS, BUT ON GOD who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.’ SO THEN HE HAS MERCY ON WHOM HE DESIRES, AND HE HARDENS WHOM HE DESIRES.” - Romans 9:15-18.

God, in telling Moses of His plan to harden Pharaoh, said that He “would be honored thru Pharaoh and all His army will know that I am Lord” - this is the purpose for which God created Pharaoh (a vessel of dishonor to fulfill God’s plan and purpose) - Exodus 14:4

“What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but THOSE WHO WERE CHOSEN OBTAINED IT, AND THE REST WERE HARDENED; just as it is written, ‘GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.’” - Romans 11:7-8 (see also Deut. 29:4, Isaiah 29:10, Matthew 13:13)

“But though He had performed many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: ‘LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?’ For this reason THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, for Isaiah said again, ‘HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.’” - John 12:37-40

“a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED; just as it is written, ‘THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.’” - Romans 11:25b-27

“I ACT AND WHO CAN REVERSE IT?” - Isaiah 43:13b

“FOR WHO RESISTS HIS WILL?” - Romans 9:19

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that THE KINDNESS OF GOD LEADS YOU TO REPENTANCE?” - Romans 2:4

Believers “were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor the will of man, BUT OF GOD.” John 1:13

Belief is GOD’S WORK - NOT MAN’S - “Jesus answered and said to them [His disciples], ‘This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE in Him Whom He has sent.’ ” - John 6:29

“You did not choose Me, but I CHOSE YOU” - John 15:16a

Since salvation is ALL OF HIM and NONE OF US, even our faith in accepting Him (belief) is from Him and NOT our own independent choice (THAT WOULD MAKE IT A WORK - “NOT BY ‘WORKS’ LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST” ( Ephesians 2:9): “CAN” means to have the ability to do something. “NO ONE CAN” means that there isn’t a single individual who has the ability to do or accomplish something. “MAY” means possessing the ability, enabling the option of CHOICE - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD” - Ephesians 2:8; “NONE CAN [NOT “MAY”] COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM” - John 6:44b; “And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that NO MAN CAN [NOT “MAY”] COME TO ME UNLESS IT HAS BEEN GRANTED HIM FROM THE FATHER’” - John 6:65; “NO ONE CAN [NOT “MAY”] SAY ‘JESUS IS LORD,’ EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT” - 1 Corinthians 12:3b; “GOD HAS ALLOTTED to each a measure of faith” - Romans 12:3b; our allotted measure of faith is controlled by Him:“I planted, Apollos watered, but GOD WAS CAUSING the growth. So then NEITHER THE ONE WHO PLANTS NOR THE ONE WHO WATERS IS ANYTHING, but GOD WHO CAUSES the growth.” - 1 Corinthians 3:6-7; HE is the Author and Perfecter of our faith - Hebrews 12:2 - THE APOSTLE PAUL IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF GOD CHOOSING US (NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND - WAS PAUL EVEN “TOYING” WITH THE IDEA OF SEEKING CHRIST ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS? PAUL SAYS IN 1 TIMOTHY 1:13b-14, “Yet I was shown mercy because I ACTED IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF, AND THE GRACE OF OUR LORD WAS MORE THAN ABUNDANT, WITH THE FAITH AND LOVE WHICH ARE FOUND IN CHRIST JESUS.”

AND what about JUDAS? He was specifically chosen as a disciple with the foreknowledge that He would betray Christ (a vessel of dishonor in fulfilling God’s plan and purpose);

AND what about when Jesus told His disciples that they would all fall away from Him? In spite of the fact that PETER even had foreknowledge of his upcoming actions that night following Jesus’ arrest (having been told by Jesus Himself what was about to transpire), PETER was adamant in his bold declaration that he would never betray Jesus, and that he would even die with Jesus - but, of course, events unfolded exactly as Jesus had described, which were certainly NOT PETER’S “choice”;

AND what about the continuing saga of JOSEPH, beginning with being sold into slavery by his brothers, and the following statements by JOSEPH to his brothers in Genesis 45: Verse 5b: “GOD SENT ME before you to preserve life; verse 7-8a: “GOD SENT ME before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. Now, therefore, IT WAS NOT YOU WHO SENT ME HERE, BUT GOD;” Genesis 50:20: “you meant evil against me, but GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD ...” (a wonderful example of God using his creation of evil for good)

AND is there any scripture indicating that any of Jesus’ 12 disciples sought Him out and chose of their own accord to follow Him?


“Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about HIS CALLING and CHOOSING YOU;” - 1 Peter 1:10a

“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life TO WHOM HE WISHES.” -John 5:21

“Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING.” - John 15:5b

“John answered and said, ‘A man can receive NOTHING unless it has been given him from heaven.’” - John 3:27

“For THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son ...” - Romans 8:29a

“But by HIS doing you are in Christ Jesus” - 1 Corinthians 1:30a

HE “works ALL things after the counsel of HIS WILL” - Ephesians 1:11

“Now to HIM WHO IS ABLE to do far more abundantly BEYOND ALL THAT WE ASK OR THINK, according to the power that works within us.” - Ephesians 3:20

“equip you in every good thing to do HIS WILL, WORKING IN US that which is pleasing in HIS SIGHT ...” - Hebrews 13:21a

“For I am confident of this very thing, that HE WHO BEGAN a good work in you WILL PERFECT IT until the day of Christ Jesus: - Philippians 1:6

“For it is God Who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” - Philippians 2:13

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which GOD PREPARED beforehand so that we would walk in them” - Ephesians 2:10

“For truly in this city, there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, Whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, TO DO WHATEVER YOUR HAND AND YOUR PURPOSE PREDESTINED TO OCCUR.” - Acts 4:27-28

“Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who according to His great mercy, HAS CAUSED US to be born again to living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead - 1 Peter 1:3

“I have been crucified with Christ, and IT IS NO LONGER I WHO LIVE, BUT CHRIST LIVES IN ME; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith [faith comes FROM HIM - not us - it is a fruit of the SPIRIT - Galatians 5:17) in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” - Galatians 2:20

Re: Justification

We are not justified BY OUR faith, but OF the faith of Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16, “having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith OF Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith OF Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified.” (Concordant Literal New Testament)


Galatians 2:20: With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is OF the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me. (Concordant Literal New Testament)

Romans 3:22: yet a righteousness of God THROUGH Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, (Concordant Literal New Testament) - The way I (Connie) understand this verse is that God’s righteousness via Jesus’ faith (notice that it’s Jesus faith - not ours) is not confined to believers, but as the verse says, it’s for “all AND ... all that believe: for THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.” The verse speaks of two different groups here - those who believe AND all others (those who don’t yet believe). In Philippians 1:29, Paul says, “For to you IT HAS BEEN GRANTED for Christ’s sake, not only to BELIEVE in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.” Belief (faith) is granted (gifted to us by Him and not anything we can muster up ourselves (Ephesians 2:8). Paul also says in 1 Timothy 1:13b-14: “Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in UNBELIEF, and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 1:16: "But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a PATTERN of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian" (Concordant Literal New Testament). This says to me that Paul's salvation is not the exception, but rather the rule - God's "PATTERN for those who are about to be believing ..." As Jesus said in John 15:5, apart from Him, we can do NOTHING!!!

Here is a good video on this topic by Ray Smith. God bless.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6764132919

ShannaB,

That was a super video by Ray Smith. Ray is totally correct. But the main issue here is that you see this incredible revelation - that is scriptural!! To understand this really takes the heat off. God is in control and we are simply NOT! And it answers all the questions as to why there is evil, sin and trouble of every kind in this world - it is because God decreed it into existance. It is very powerful knowledge - good for you - ShannaB.

John