That's exactley what I mean. A lot of anti-trintarian arguments are simply a theological overreaction. In fact I wouldn't even discuss this issue if it wouldn't be brought up all the time. But I think it is only fair to present an alternative view.

Just to be sure I love those who disagree with me on this, even if I might sometimes debate this in no uncertain terms. In the end its all about knowing Father's Heart not dividing the Deity in a correct way.

As soon as the early church turned their focus away from the experience of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and focused on explaining Him they lost something of their fire. Intelecualism is still a big issue on both sides of the theological spectrum.

I've come to the conclusion that this is fruitless debate. We all need to walk in the Light that has been given to us. That's why I will get out of the debate here.

Written by Floyd:


I would agree, like I said earlier, it's what we have been given to see! You and I could post back and forth all day, and we would only speak to those who see as we do! Yes, it may very well help us strengthen our own views but will do nothing to open the eyes of others who do not agree, as only God can change that!

I still respect your view, as I once too saw it that way too! I have no doubt in the end you and I will come to a complete agreement when all has been reveled to us in the fullness of time!

Peace,
Paul

Pierac!

I kwik-scanned the locked thread, just page 1 so far.
You presented LOTS of information!

Would you mind posting this in the Christendom Library table forum over in my itty bitty sandbox?

And, you most certainly are welcome, in your thread [or in a separate thread in the Christendom forum], to give a nice big mention of Father's Love board!!

Roland

Hi!

I just answered your PM over in my place. :)

I like what you did here! You started your research thread, which you can obviously edit as needed, and you started a conversation thread, with a link back to your research thread!

Please do the same in my neck of the woods, thanks!

And, don't forget to give a nice big plug for this board, Father's Love, on my board.

Roland

Well don't forget about people like me who are reading through the material and the comments. I welcome all sides of the topic. No need to see it as a debate as if to win each other over, but putting out both sides of a topic (all sides actually) is a good thing. Remember there are learners like me who really want to hear what you have to say ... even if we aren't commenting yet.

There are others such as L Ray Smith on his website "Those who Contradict" who espouse similar views of the Trinity idea .. I agree with him and the posters here that the Trinity is an invented construct..the problem is the whole fear mentality of Christianity has made people scared to death to believe Jesus is NOT God..the idea of faith in Jesus as Savior AND God is taught as being necessary for one to avoid Hell ..ironically this is a very blasphemous teaching Jesus himself never referred to himself as God nor did the OT writers ever say the Messiah was God..it was very enlightening to read your posts on how this error came into being


..I have long thought Christianity was way too "Greek" in its thinking and elevated function over form thus making our humanity secondary and even something to be suppressed rather than reveled in and appreciated. Nonetheless I believe Jesus lives today and was resurrected..for me there is one God and there is Jesus my lord or adoni..he is my teacher, example and my brother (as he himself said)..this is what my spirit says to me and I hope I am right

If Jesus is God then how was he begotten? What existed before he was begotten? This event had to occur in time so there was a time before he was begotten when only the Father existed because he was begotten by the Father. Why does Jesus refer to God as my God but God never calls Jesus his God? in the OT the Messiah was never presented as God. Where did believing in Jesus as God come from and when did it become requisite for salvation? If we read the Gospels only, where did Jesus ever say he was God?

Let me share what I see when I seen these questions.

Such questions as, "If Jesus is God, the how was he begotten" has a presupposition that says, "God is limited" it also says, "God is an individual". They are completely flawed at it's core.
Such questions as, "What existed before he was begotten?" has a presupposition that says, "God is limited" it also says, "God is an individual". They are completely flawed at it's core.

You say, "Why does Jesus refer to God as my God but God never calls Jesus his God?" But He does!

Psalms 45:6-7 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Don't believe it? The Author of Hebrews makes it very clear:

Hebrews 1:8-9
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Such questions as, "Where did believing in Jesus as God come from and when did it become requisite for salvation." is called a strawman fallacy. It has no subjective perception has no relevance in regard to what is objectively true. A man's subjective perception of the truth, doesn't change what is objectively truth and therefore as with the other questions, they are completely flawed at it's core.

Lastly, "If we read the Gospels only, where did Jesus ever say he was God?" He was declared to be God by His disciples, and did not deny it or denounce them for it. The Jews accused him of calling himself God, and Jesus did not deny it or denounce them for it. The only case someone has is, was Jesus ever accused of something and did not deny it? The fact is, when Jesus was accused things He was not, he denied it. Read Matthew 11 and Matthew 12.

If you are serious, I hope you find that the answers I gave, are with credit and like a Berean one should study and show themselves an approve workman of God. light shed in this reply helpful to repentance. If you are facetious, then God forgive you.

Once again one must read the scriptures as a Jew. Look at an excerpt from some of my research... Just remember it's not my work so I don't want to take undue credit!

Hebrews 1: 8-9

Your throne O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions.

This is the only other place besides John 20:28 in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as God. Does this imply that he is God Almighty? Not even close. This explanation has the same basic principle as John 20:28 which was discussed earlier, namely the usage of the word god. As was mentioned earlier, the term god in the first century did not necessarily mean Almighty God.

In this verse the writer is quoting Psalm 45:7 word for word. This same verse was used for the Hebrew King (probably Solomon) in Psalm 45:7, and nobody ever accused Solomon of being God. It will help us tremendously to read Psalm 45 in its entirety. Please pay special attention to whom this Psalm is about. Who is singing it to whom will be obvious in the second verse.

Psalm 45:2 states:

"My heart is stirred by a noble theme, as I sing my ode to the king. My tongue is the pen of a nimble scribe."

As the Psalm says, a scribe is singing about the Hebrew king. Then we get to verse 7, but the subject has not changed, it is still about the king. I think it would be helpful at this time to review a few notes from the NAB on Psalm 45:7.


45:7: Your throne O God: The Hebrew king was called Elohim, "God," not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient pagans, but as meaning "godlike," or, taking the place of God.

45:7: god: the king, in courtly language, is called "god," representing God to the people.

Aspects of Monotheism states that "god" is an allegorical equivalent for "king."
Psalms 45 is about the anointed king of Israel. Verse 8 says:

"Therefore God, your God, anointed you..."

As you can see, it was common to refer to the Hebrew king as "God" because he represented God to the people, not because he was God. In other words, God gave His authority to the Hebrew kings, and in that sense they sat on the throne of God, and in that sense they were addressed as god in their court. 1 Chronicles 29:23 states:

"Therefore Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of his father David."

The whole point of chapter 1 in Hebrews is to prove the superiority of the Son (Messiah) over the angels, it is not to prove the deity of Jesus. Paul in chapter 1 is arguing against a growing Gnostic belief. The Gnostics claimed that there were many mediators between God and man, and that these mediators were spirits or angels. Jesus they claimed, was just one of these angels. This is why Paul argues in verse 5 that God has never called an angel His son, or made an angel His anointed king in verse 8-9, or sat an angel at His right hand in verse 13, nor subjected the world to come to angel in verse 2:5.

Hebrews 1:8-9 is speaking about the Son being the king of Israel, the Messiah. It speaks about a throne, a scepter and a kingdom. These are all things that are associated with a king as it was in Psalm 45:7, this is why it was written of Solomon. Another way of saying this verse is, "Your throne O king." This is why it is also used for the Messiah Jesus, because the Messiah is the king of Israel par-excellence who represents God in His kingdom. Jesus will sit on the throne of God in the Messianic kingdom representing God to the people. Last, but not least, is verse 9, which says:

"Therefore God, your God, anointed you..."

If we make Hebrews 1:8-9 to mean that Jesus is God, then we have a major conflict for any Trinitarian doctrine. The reason being that it specifically says that the Son has a God who anointed him. If Jesus is God, and he has a God, then there are TWO Gods. This is impossibility for Christianity.

It is very easy to use the meanings of words which we are familiar with today, but we must always remember to read the Bible with the mindset and the vocabulary of the people who wrote it.

Paul

And there is the who crux of the problem...reading the Scriptures as a Jew, leads to knowing NOTHING.

2 Corinthians 3:13-15
We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
---

John 8:42-59
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"

"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
---

I would think you would have picked up on this by now, Paul. They were the Lost Sheep of Israel after all.

I understand completely, Jesus rebuked the Jews for forsaking God in favor of their own traditions. It matters not that Jesus was a Jew, He spoke the Truth and they could not hear Him because the Jews had lost their way. There is nothing He could say, that would have him understood within his own culture, since they lived by falsehood. What Scriptures are you reading?

To the JEWS, Jesus said, "The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

To the JEWS, Jesus said, "My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know Him, I know Him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

To the JEWS, Jesus said "...You nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."



Well you think wrong, and that is fact demonstrated in by Paul Himself, that while He was zealous for God and trained in the law of his fathers, a Jew of Jews, his mind was dull never knowing the truth of anything. That is, until he turned to Jesus.

Acts 22:2-10
When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet. Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, as also the high priest and all the Council can testify. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished.

"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'

'Who are you, Lord?' I asked.

" 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied.
---

Galations 1:11-14
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." And they praised God because of me.
---

When Paul wrote this:

Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
---

He was speaking of himself, in his previous way of life as in Judaism. He admits the fact His mind was made dull, so much so He was MURDERING Christians for the sake of the Law, that is, until Jesus intervened. He even admits it!

Romans 10:1-4
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
---

2 Corinthians 3:12-16
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
---

The error of your understanding becomes more and more obvious. Interesting that you are blind to this. Could it be that you, have been reading Scripture like the Jews?

We are willing to go back in history and culture to examine the meaning of the word hell. Why then is the word 'god' any different? Maybe saying we should read scripture through 'Jewish eyes' is a sour spot since it evokes the idea that the Jews had it figured out and we should 'get back to that knowledge', but I think that it basically means to put scripture in context, which I don't think you are opposed to Craig.

I think there are definitely two sides to the "Hebraic mind" coin. Both have been presented well by Craig and Paul.

The negative side we see in the form of tradition/spiritual blindness and hardness of heart because of the backslidden state of Israel in Jesus' day.

On the positive side we see in the fact that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David etc saw Christ and the gospel ahead of time, not to mention all the prophecies of Messiah which came through the Hebrews. There is definitely great value in understanding the eastern mindset when reading their writings.

That said, much corruption came in while the Jews were in captivity and many pagan beliefs crept into Judaism.

On the other hand the Greek/Hellenistic culture has greatly influenced our western thinking, so it's good to learn to see outside of those confines.

In the end, the Spirit of truth must reveal the truth, but I think these discussions are great at bringing out the pros and cons.

blessings,
- Byron

Craig wrote:


So are you saying Paul was not a Jew? Amazing!


Byron wrote:


Yes, I agree! These discussions do bring out the pros and cons. This is a good thing too!

You are demonstrating an inability to understand and I know you are not this slow, so this leads me to think you are purposely confusing the issue.

It is a simple concept. Paul was deceived, dull-minded, given to a depraved mind, until he received revelation of Jesus Christ. That means, reading anything like a Jew, you will miss everything, in the same way Paul missed everything, even up to justifying murder.

Jesus said, that the Jews were liars, and did not know God. Therefore, they will never see who Jesus is or was; that is why they kept wanting to stone Him, even up to killing Him!

After the revelation of Jesus Christ, Paul referred to being a Jew, as a previous way of Life; he even said the Gospel he preaches was not given to him by any man, nor through tradition, but through Jesus Christ. That means, he no longer read anything like a Jew, but by the Spirit.

It was Paul who also said, as long as Moses is read, the Gospel is veiled; and if it is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

Jesus said, the Pharisee and the teachers of the Law, were not Children of God, but Children of the Devil.

Conclusion: Reading Scripture like a Jew, leads to nothing and understanding nothing.

Let me repeat the Scripture:

Galations 1:11-14
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

As I said earlier, when you said, "I think not", it should become very clear, you thought wrong. In the same way someone thinks 3+3=4, they thought wrong. It isn't personal.

Sidenote: According to Galations 1:11-14, Paul recognized Jesus Christ appearing from Heaven, as God, not man.

Paul was still a Jew after his conversion.

Craig this is not about Jews and Gentiles. There were many Jew's who were not blind, and dull-minded, given to a depraved mind. Why? Because they were chosen. Listen to Paul

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

This does not change the fact that Jesus was speaking within a different culture than ours! To understand the scriptures one must with the leading of the Spirit grasp the idioms, and Hebrew syntax with in the teachings and speech of the 1st Century. Failure to do so has lead to the orthodox church today.

You have already done this process with the understanding of “Hell” and the Greek “Aion.” You grasp the Hebraic understanding of Gehenna. Yet, you stop there?

Paul

Craig wrote:
Let me share what I see when I seen these questions.

Such questions as, "If Jesus is God, the how was he begotten" has a presupposition that says, "God is limited" it also says, "God is an individual". They are completely flawed at it's core.
Such questions as, "What existed before he was begotten?" has a presupposition that says, "God is limited" it also says, "God is an individual". They are completely flawed at it's core.

You say, "Why does Jesus refer to God as my God but God never calls Jesus his God?" But He does!... Ummm no Craig He doesn't he was referring to Solomon..(wow to be free of dogma and orthodoxy and embrace the truth is nice)..so let me pray for you whether you are being facetious or not..

Well Craig it isn't a strawman argument it is a false supposition according to you..however God is limited in a certain sense.. can he exist and not exist can he sin? can he beget Jesus and not beget him and also the trinity is what argues for God being an individual..3 in fact..I say he is ONE

your reply hearkens back to the nonsensical mind warping dogma pushed by hard core evangelicals who cover up their faulty doctrines by asking the poor followers to accept contradictions such as Jesus is man and God, Jesus is God but he learned Godliness, God said all but didn't mean all, God is love but he isn't for those he doesn't love, God offers salvation to all but he doesn't really want to save all etc. Its enough to make a preacher cuss Instead of embracing all these contradictions and chalking it up to your own limited mind, just see it as a bunch of patchwork nonsense made up by desperate evil men trying to invent a religion of power and domination..Jesus saw through them and they killed him for it..God's truth isnt based on paradoxes it is clear and direct He loves us all and Jesus is the proof


I think we need o be careful about questioning other people's motives here and accusing them of insincerity or else we fall into the ideologues tactic of demonizing the opposition as a substitute for logical refutation..the way a previous poster chopped up the Psalms to make a predetermined point about Jesus supposedly being God rather than letting scripture speak for itself (God as used was simply a title for a King) is of the traditions of men that have killed so many and ruined so much. We cannot start out by declaring another to be wrong and then presuming about their character or sanctimoniously offering to pray for them..Ive seen these tricks over and over and all they do is convince me more and more that the Churchianity spawned ideologues are some of the most uncritical naive readers of scripture there are. Save your prayers for my darkness or insincerity Ive come out of the darkness of evangelical Christianity!!..praise the LORD (Adonai not adoni) so He already answered it years ago

An interesting video on this subject:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0879&hl=en

Hi Byron,

Good video!

I have seen it before but only in parts. You found it all in one spot! Thanks for sharing!

Paul