GREAT STUFF!!!!!


Keep it coming - I will post some more question a bit later.

Hello Again Christine:

Wow! The insights added by Craig, Paul, Scott and others have been every interesting to me. However, concerning the subject of who or what the “evil something” is, I remain somewhat undecided. It could be “Satan” or “The Law” or “Religion” or maybe another spirit - they all seem to have the same MO. But then again, I’m not sure that it really makes a difference which you choose. Suffice it to say, evil does exist and Jesus warned us about it and how we should deal with it but never actually explained the purpose of evil, even though I am also convinced that evil never comes from our Father.

I will share what I have found to be a simple and practical yet profound Truth: Left to our own devices, without spiritual (or moral) instruction, correction and Love, we all would almost certainly evolve into self-centered and murderous tyrants even if all of our primal needs (Food, Clothing, Shelter, etc) were met.

I believe that this “evil force” in our lives is the inherit spirit of man or our unregenerated and carnal nature. In many places, the Bible depicts the evil nature of man’s heart. Today’s news confirms the fruit of this evil. If I am honest with myself, I know that I am not immune to its (potential) poison and this sometimes scares me. To me, these evil manifestations define “Satan” or “The Adversary” in its simplest and most basic form. This is why we need saving, that is, we need salvation from our carnal selves! To me, this explanation is more reasonable than “ye ole red guy” or the talking snake of Eden or the disembodied, marauding evil spirit depicted in Job.

Again, this is just my opinion and where I am now…

In His Love, John

John Wrote:



That was very well said


I don't know why, but something in me doesn't allow me to believe that man is evil. We are created in Gods image and likeness. We seem to have many of the same attributes as God yet unrefined: slow to ager, merciful, loving, jealous, etc... So its like, we have to have the "negative emotion" ability to have or notice the "positive" ability.... If there was no opposites feelings of love we would not know what love is and we would not enjoy it. If there was not the opposite of happy we would know know what unhappy is. If we didn't know the opposite of peace, we wouldn't know what peace was.

People all seem to be waiting for a time where there is "no more tears" and for that to happen on earth God would have to take away all the "negatives" and then what we would be is feelingless robots, if everyone is in a "love only emotion" we would no longer be humans but feelingless robots IMO. For you wouldnt even recognize the love becuase you have nothing to compare it to and I think God would have to shut off about 99% of your brain Love means nothing without the opposite available.

I believe that it is society and false ego and man/world taught pressures that make us walk in the "unrefined" attributes and then we meet God and He starts to highlight and refine those things, not tell us its bad period.

Carnality is part of us, there is no getting rid of it, to hate it or try to dissect it to me is death. A house divided can not stand.

Man, I think we need to love ourselves and believe God said "It is Good" Where is the life in saying "Part of me is messed up, defective and is to be rejected"? I dont see Jesus delivering that message to us?

God gave us feelings which come with choices, we are influenced by many things in the choices we make - sometimes they are good choices and sometimes they are evil and then add to it that we reap what we sow.

Now, do I think that there is something influencing our decisions, yes, sometimes I believe so, do I believe that there is something so evil inside me that just wants to do evil? No, I believe that there is something inside me that is weak and when making choices gets influence by many things including maybe a devil or spirit as well as my environment and situations, wounds, scars etc.....

Even to be "self centered" must have to do with the survival instinct...... Is there anything wrong with taking care of yourself and loving yourself? No, its when it is unrefined and tainted that its a problem. For if you dont love yourself, take care of yourself it really is true that you are no good to anyone else, including your children.

If I tell my kids right now that there is something in them that is really bad and is against God and God apposed it..... what life will that EVER bring them? Isnt this what fuels religion? You better keep coming back becuase you need "fixing"... you need to come forever because on earth you will never truly be "ok"?

Thats just my thoughts, I could be wrong..... Blessings

I agree LoT, I used to have a belief that man was inherently evil because of the fall. That was until I discovered the definition of evil is not always the same definition of evil we were taught. From what I have studied, mankind is actually inherently good but lacking knowledge of good and evil. Through our experience, we begin to gain understanding of what sin is. In order to recognize sin for what sin is, according to Romans 7:13, it produces death. From this knowledge of sin and death, we begin to be responsible and held accountable for the choices we make because we begin to recognize we have within our grasp, according to Proverbs 18:21, the very power of life and death.

This is the evil that all mankind is subjected to, not that they themselves are evil and living in an evil world; but rather lacking knowledge we commit sin never knowing it is evil until we have done it. This is the evil God has subjected us to in Creation when He placed the tree of knowledge in our midst. We read Paul explain it in Romans 7:15-17, where if we do not do what we want to do and sin instead, we recognize that it was not us who did it but sin (the nature of not knowing the truth), that did it. This is the Law of Sin and Death, not because it was written in stone, but because like the Law of Gravity is what goes up must come down, the Law of Sin and Death is whatever sins must die.

There is another evil, an evil God does not do. That is to consciously make the choice to sin when we know what good is. Being guilty of sin, as Jesus explains in John 9:41, is because we claim to see good and evil and like James confirms in James 4:17, anyone knows the good he should do but does not do it, sins. These are those who's father is the devil, according to John 8:43-44, who know the Law of God and claim to be good, yet consciously sin against one another.

Now, putting all things together, it is good that sin produces death, because sin cannot last. The reason we are not in the Garden, expelled from the Tree of Life, is because as long as we are lacking, sin continues to exist, and as long as sin continues to exist, death reigns. Now, it is my hope that pieces begin to fall in place with understanding what who is the god/spirit that requires blood. It most definitely is not God in heaven.

Since we have been taught to fear death because fearful men with no hope believed the state of death was a permanent state, as Colossians 2:16-25 reads, he began to form new laws and rules to protect himself from that permanent state hoping that keeping these laws he would be saved. No matter their intension, whether malicious or innocent, the evil that lives inside all mankind, the lack of knowledge to know what is good and evil, has him commit acts believing they were good and having evil result because it was actually sin. These fearful men introduce heresy, myths and other vain imaginations in order to justify himself and declared himself a god in the sight of men in order to save those around him. These fearful men, according to 2 Peter 2:1, even neglect the True God, the Creator of all things, the One God who is above all, in all and through all from Beginning and End, forgetting even Him who purchased them. These heresies, myths, vain imaginations, laws and covenants, as Isaiah 28:15-19 says, will be annulled and destroyed by the Light of Truth in Christ Jesus.

So now there is another Law, one which has been hidden from the eyes of men, and this is the Law of Life in Christ Jesus. This Law was before the foundation of the world and kept a mystery until the day He was revealed. It was that while we are dead in our sins, as Colossians 2:13-15 says, Christ died for us. God made us alive in Him, forgiving all our sins by having destroyed everything that opposed us nailing it to the cross. This is the Law of Life in Christ Jesus, that where death is demanded, Jesus died for us; where suffering is required, Jesus suffered for us; where debt is necessitated, Jesus paid for us; Jesus took away every obstacle, every barrier, every hindrance, every obstruction, every accusation, and delivered us from death to life before the Father blameless and holy, confirming Romans 8:38-39, which tell us nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God. The kicker of this Law, as Ephesians 2:7-9 says, it is not a result of anything we could do, not even our faith, but by the Grace of God!

So by my opinion, observation, and study, there are many gods and spirits which demanded things of us, and even if it was unfair for Him to accommodate them, our Father God sent His Son to save us through Him. There of course is far more than this, but this is what the Lord inspired me to write in this hour.

SCRIPTURE QUOTES BELOW:
[sup]*Romans 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
*Proverbs 18:21 The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.
*Romans 7:15-17 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
*John 9:41 "Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."
*James 4:17 "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."
*John 8:43-44 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
*Colossians 2:16-23 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
*2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
* Isaiah 28:15-19 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place." So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:"See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding place.Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the grave will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it.As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through." The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror.
*Colossians 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
*Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
*Ephesians 2:7-9 In order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.[/sup]

Great points, Christine and Craig! Hmm… man is basically good.

You know, it makes sense if you believe Our Creator and Father God is Good by definition (and I do). Then it follows that everything done or said by our Father is Good as well. This includes Creation and, of course, US. The Genesis account also confirms this idea as God calls his Creation Good and his Creation of Humans (or at least Spiritual Men and Women) Very Good.

I see the dangers of assuming that there is “something wrong” with us, but without it, no correction or teaching of moral behavior seems justified. It appears that we were created as moral agents with the freedom to make decisions between good and evil (the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil idea). But this is part of the maturation process – we do not possess this freedom as infants. But as we mature, at some point, it seems (to me) that we DO become “soldiers” in a “war between two spirits”, not unlike the little beings that sit on the shoulders of cartoon characters, one prompting the Good choices and the other the bad.

All, I’m saying is that devoid of moral instruction and Love, we seem destine to gravitate toward the Evil. Why? Were we created “Flawed by Design”? If so, how can I be sure that there is something endemically wrong with humans? I can’t! It’s just the way we are and I’m willing to trust The Father on this one, even if I never understand it.

The “Narrow Path” that Jesus spoke of seems to require instruction, Love and nurturing. Although, I’m sure there have been, and will continue to be, cases of “Burning Bush Conversions” these don’t seem to be the normal. Most of us learn of Our Father from others and desire to know Him more as His Spirit pulls us into study and communion with Him.

Of course, I could be wrong too and I hope I haven’t thrown salt into any open wounds!

In His Love, John (seeing Dimly)

Thanks for the reply,

This is my opinion and open to correction, because of how others react, I want to make this clear I am not point fingers or anything at you, so don't take this in any other other than for discussion sake. So understand that I say this in light of what you said, feel free to disagree and please for heaven-sake, don't take it personally should I seem to offend. I am sorry before hand if my opinion causes you or anyone else distress.



I believe in the same way we do good for the sake that is the good thing to do, there does not need necessarily to be anything 'wrong' with us in order to be corrected and taught moral behavior. It is also good for us to be corrected and taught moral behavior because were are always growing. The mindset that there must be something wrong with us, I believe is what has tainted our view of our God for many many years by men who have only made things more complicated as a result of this mindset.

Remember, it is not wrong to be a child, yet all children are grow-up to be adults and to say that we growing up is because it is wrong to be a child, is actually what is wrong! I believe that we need to match what our ideas are in light of the reality of God's declaration that everything very good, just as you say, and that God is Love, which is what the disciples say. Being ignorant is not wrong, but it is not beneficial to remain ignorant and God tells us not to be ignorant any longer.

[sup]*2 Corinthians 2:10-12 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
*1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
*Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.[/sup]

My doctor once told me "Don't worry Byron - all bleeding eventually stops"

AISI:

Since we are dwelling in the heart of the earth (bearing the image of the earthy) we all (to one degree or another) live within the programming of the earthy system. Self preservation (fear of death) is at the root of the system. The only 'fix' is the passing away (death) of the thought patterns contained within the system. Blood symbolizes that which sustains the existence of that which causes our sense of separation from God's perfect 'heavenly' order, and so it's shedding is paramount for a passing over into the new zoeic order. The 'wrath' of God abides upon the earthy (selfish) system and yes, demands the removal of it's blood (it's death) so that the new may come.

It's the wage thing.

blessings,

Byron

Cool

John,

Great stuff!! I agree with you. As I read it I thought of an old fashioned scale




I see love on one side and the opposite of love on the other

When one have more love "given to them" and walking in the love side will be the heaviest (most dominant) and thus produce more fruit, better actions, better decisions, leaning towards good.

The other side is where this is lack of love, maybe abused as a child, never experienced love, does not know love or how to give it and the fruit is not great in that life, decisions are bad, fruit is not great and most of reactions come from that side of the scale.

I see God come in and start to work on that side - starting to fill that person with love, layer by layer, and working to bring that side of the scale less and less. I think the ultimate goal is that all our actions/responses come from the love side.


Anyways - this is how I am seeing it this morning Thoughts?

Christine: Yes! I like the scales idea too – excellent analogy!

Craig: You haven’t offend me at all, brother! And those scriptures are great admonishments for spiritual maturity! I like this one too: Eph4:14-16 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Speaking the Truth in Love sometimes seems impossible for me. But, nevertheless, I see what we are doing here (exchanging ideas in Love) as part of “fitting the whole Body (Christ’s) together!

I know this is Christine’s Thread, but I have been edified and perhaps persuaded too. I would like to express my thanks to all of you! Hey, did that rhyme? Sorry - not intended!

In His Love, John

So are you saying blood represents death? Death to all the false we walk in? The systems we come under, our false ego?

Yes, more or less, except it's the shedding of blood. I'm stating that requiring that the life-blood be drained from something is (obviously) requiring it's death and that any lack of freedom is directly related to a fear of this loss of our lives (our specialness or perceived independence). That's how I see the dynamic of going from point A to point B, from self life to zoe life. Sacrifice is a beautiful thing. If we see ourselves as separate from God then we fail to realize that the sacrifice is by the will (love) of God working within us, not some religious requirement. The love of God is tested and proven and purified within us when we (joyfully) give ourselves over to the pangs of death for the good of someone else.

blessings,
- Byron

Hey Byron!

I was wondering, do see that blood represents life independent from God? As I pointed out earlier, blood was not in Adam and Eve until after they were out of the garden, it was flesh and bone. Paul explains that flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God, and Jesus when raised from the dead shedding his blood, was flesh and bone. Just wondering.

I saw your comment and remembered those scrips and yes, that's pretty much how I see it - the life of the flesh is in the blood. I see death bringing freedom and so never struggled with the sacrifice concept. The body of sin is destroyed through death.
blessings,
- Byron

Came across this in another writing:


__________________________

I thought this was interesting, that maybe we where "charged for something we did not do"? That our minds felt the need to pay, but we were not guily, but Jesus came and had to come and say "you are not guilty" to take it out of us?

And to this day, we still dont believe it

Thoughts?

Well, LoT, I don’t believe the stories about the first sins to be literally true. That is, I don’t believe in the “Fall of Man” or the “Original Sin” episode in the Garden of Eden other than in an allegorical sense. Simply put, I can’t believe that our Father would act as described in the Genesis account.

We are asked to believe that god goes away (how can he do this – he’s omniscient, right?) and leaves his ignorant kids alone with an “evil being” that he (god) knows to be a lair, murderer and molester of the innocent – the very personification of evil! Further, he (god) doesn’t even tell his kids about the “bad guy” in their midst or his devious plans to “tempt and destroy” them, even though god knows this is precisely what the evil one plans to do!

I’m sorry, but this looks like a setup of the highest order and the stuff of mythology. To me, the “Episode in Eden” appears to be an ancient and simplistic oral tradition used to explain how evil got started and, further, to blame all on mankind for it, causing us to, henceforth and forever more, live under the thumb of an angry and vengeful “god” who required appeasement.

Look how small this makes Our Father look! Because of a single, momentary lapse of judgment, “god” is COMPELLED to CURSE US ALL, FOREVER!? :mshock:

There are many great lessons in the Book of Genesis, but this is not one of them! I see FEAR and not the Love made Perfect taught by Jesus.

Just me, of course…but I ain’t drinkin’ the Kool-Aide on this one!

Love in Him, John

But doesnt He kind of do this now? I mean, it seems we are in a war field, we do have knowledge and how to stay safe, yet I believe we do have an enemy that is always coming against us, even if its ourselves ?

I am off to play tennis but will write more when I get back

Hi Christine (LoT):

I see your point, I think, and as I alluded to earlier, I do see some allegorical applications to our lives today. But, when this incident is used as a proof text for “Original Sin”, it is at that point that I get my underwear in a knot.

In contrast, look how different Jesus’ response was to temptation and failure when it threatened His Disciples (His kids as it were). I especially like the Luke 22 account (I have prayed for you) and John 14 (Let not your heart be troubled). This is a picture of a caring Heavenly Father that understands and suffers with us and will never forsake us.

And then there are all of those confirming scriptures: Heb 13:5, Deut 31:5, Joshua 1:5 and finally the high-water mark of Paul’s Roman Epistle, Rom 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? … Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

To me, THIS is the Father’s Heart. I kinda missed this idea in the GoE account. Again, just me.

If others see it differently – it’s fine with me until they start “selling the fear”, especially to my kids and grandkids – Dems fightin’ words in my house!

In His Love, John (Never Fatherless)