Continues from:John 8:12-27 - The True Witness

Joh 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you shall know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.

When Jesus spoke of the Son of Man being lifted up we all see the cross and assume that to be the interpretation. The Son of Man and Son of God are not the same. Yes it can infer the cross but I see more in it. When the son of man (us) is lifted out of sin consciousness aka the law, then we can see what Jesus spoke is true. I have been on this theme for awhile now and I still see logic in the way I am sharing it.

Joh 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.
Joh 8:30 As He spoke these words, many believed upon Him.

Knowing the True Father gives us the ability to do those things that please Him. When we flounder in a sin conscious mindset, we rob ourselves and we distance ourselves from the Father. For some the light is on; for others they grope around still searching out the Truth when the Truth is, and always has been, in our innermost being. God has to draw us and open our eyes to this fact and show us look inside and not outside. This was the whole message of Jesus ministry. I showed in the earlier study that nothing can separate us from the Love of God.

He who sent Me has not left ME alone. Jesus knew the Father intimately. We have been taught this is only possible if Jesus was God in the Flesh literally. Jesus was God in the flesh as we all are, the difference is we do not see it - Jesus did.

Now this will be interpreted as heresy as this touches the sacred cow of religion, so be it. Jesus had no compunction to oppose religion so neither will I. Jesus as God in the flesh, or where Jesus says the Father and I are one really means that Jesus was of the same mindset as the Father. The fruit of Jesus' ministry was that of the Father directly working through Him. It is strange we have the trinity doctrine that makes Jesus equal to the Father yet when I propose that Jesus was not God incarnate as we have been taught, there is opposition. I am saying is the same merely from a different perspective. Jesus was a Man that fully understood the Father's Heart, His ministry tried to show us that He (Father) loves us unconditionally.

The trinity doctrine requires that Jesus be elevated when in reality, the Father came down in the form of man Spiritually not literally in the physical man Jesus. This may sound too close to gnostic doctrine but it is not. My definition does not take away one iota from Jesus apart from denying that His death and blood was atonement for us.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word (that which I am teaching you), you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Verse 32 is my favorite passage along with verse 36. We have been taught once saved we must continue and this text is used. "If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed." Is that truth? Let us evaluate.

Some were beginning to see what He was saying, that He was showing the futility of the Law. What was "My Word"? In a nutshell the revelation Jesus was sharing with them, it is not the bible. Remember, at the time there was no New testament, in fact there was only the Jewish scriptures - in fact I would go so far as to say, the majority were illterate and knew what they knew purely by oral tradition.. The revelation of Jesus was recorded as testimonies where we have the gospels and the Acts of the apostles and the Epistles - all of these cannot be said to have no error. That they were inspired of the Holy Spirit yes, absolutely. In fact I place more faith in the NT than the OT.

The New Covenant is what? We are taught that it was by the blood of Jesus that sealed it for us. All covenants had blood of sorts or so we infer thus it is natural that the new covenant is written in the blood of Jesus. Really? How about the covenant always existed? With that POV then God's Plan A for us is sound doctrine. Seeing an old and new creates a division where I believe there is none.

God first called out the nation of Israel and had a purpose in doing so. We really have to be open minded and consider how He dealt with other cultures. All of them have or had pagan god's just like the Jews had. The gods of the Israelites were just as pagan as all the rest, all required blood. Christianity today has the blood of Jesus as their atonement yet we have had the believers and heretics pay in their own blood for their beliefs? All the while maybe they too had a revelation of who the Father really Is.

Joh 8:33 They answered Him, We are Abraham's seed and were never in bondage to anyone. How do you say, You will be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is the slave of sin.

We are taught that we who sin are not saved in the first place using this text. How about if this means:

Whoever is sin conscious (practices sin) or is a slave to it?

See if our focus is on the sin that exists in all of us, then we are in bondage to it. The very word Religion comes from the archaic word religāre which literally means to bind or tie up. Think about that for awhile.

Joh 8:35 And the slave does not abide in the house forever, but the Son abides forever.
Joh 8:36 Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

Can anyone reading this honestly say there are sinless? I doubt it.

What are we freed from?

Joh 8:7 But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Could we cast a stone? This is why Jesus taught us not to judge. We judge according to the flesh and hence we are judged by how we judge. Once the mud fight starts, both sides get dirty. So what is this freedom Jesus speaks of?

It is the freedom from the perception that the Father holds sin against us, only the law does that, only man holds or keeps a record or a sin list. God is not a man. The sin we do does not change who He is. When we still hold to the notion that sin is an issue to God - we remain slaves to sin. This is why Jesus says we should agree quickly with our adversary. Admitting you are a sinner is what that bit means. Knowing that sin is not an issue to God means a simple sorry and you move on. If God does not hold a record, why should we? That is the trap of satan. He is the accuser and while we yield to the guilt of sin, we keep ourselves in a position, from our perspective, distant from the Father. Our conscience convicts us, that is His built in mechanism in us. When we want to justify sin, then we introduce law, hence it is written that the sacrifices of animals never took sin away, at best it dealt only with the guilt of sin, nothing more.

Joh 8:37 I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me because My Word has no place in you.

See the claim to fame attitude here? Are we not the same? When we have this pious attitude, we kill the Christ that is in us, that being His Word which should be in us (not the bible/the living Word of God), the Christ in us, the revelation of who the Father IS. The Word Jesus speaks of here is just that Word. What do we do when we see the fundamentals of our belief challenged? We kill the messenger.

Joh 8:38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you, then, do what you have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I have heard beside God; this Abraham did not do.

See here, they claim to be of Abraham's seed so Jesus lays down the challenge, walk the talk. To sidetrack here and discuss the works of Abraham will take long, suffice to say, he and Sarah both blew it but the two things that stand out with Abraham was belief and obedience eventually. remember the covenant Abraham originally had was later passed onto Isaac. Read Genesis 17-22 (click link)

Joh 8:41 You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word. (not the bible)
Joh 8:44 You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.

Suffice to say, here Jesus is showing them, in spite of their religion, they do not know who the Father is. If there was any power or authority in it, they would have embraced Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus equates what they do as being from the devil, hence as I have believed now for a long time, most of the origins of the Pharisaical beliefs was not God ordained, hence my intense distrust with religion today. They could not hear the truth as what they had perceived as truth was of the devil.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
Joh 8:47 He who is of God hears God's Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God. (the Father)
Joh 8:48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, Do we not say well that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I do not have a demon, but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.

Can you see religion talking here? Whenever it goes against what you have believed, it has to be a demonic influence? I share radically different perspectives from mainstream thinking and that will be rejected purely on "it does not line up with what I/we have been taught" I do not say I have all truth but what I share is different to the mainstream rhetoric.

While one holds to tradition, you close yourself off to the truth. If what I speak is truth, then there shall be a second witness.

Joh 8:50 And I do not seek My own glory, but there is One who seeks and judges.
Joh 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keeps My Word (not the bible), he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham and the prophets are dead, and you say, If a man keeps my Word, he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets are dead; whom do you make yourself?

"Shall never see death" is commonly taught to mean our immortality based on our belief and acceptance on Jesus. Is that what it means? How about belief on Jesus' Word? His teachings, His knowledge of the Father's heart means that the death of the law and sin focus is what we are spared from? Again, the Word is not the bible. The Jews took the death He spoke of as literal and they did not understand.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
Joh 8:55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!
Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.

Here we have text that is commonly used to show that Jesus always existed but is that so? The Christ (Father nature in Jesus) always existed and Abraham saw this. The I AM is typically used to illustrate the deity of Jesus. The Christ in Jesus was the Deity, that was the Spirit of the Father living through Him, this is why Jesus could recognize that the Father had sent Him to share what He did.

Think about it folks. God is so powerful, in the twinkling of an eye He can rectify all the wrong perceptions and the evil that exists, why doesn't He? I mean He is all knowing, Omnipresent, what is stopping Him? Did he really need Jesus to do this? No.

He chose Jesus to come set the record straight at an appropriate time. I explained this earlier. God delegated authority to us to have dominion over the earth. He has never taken it back. Upon prayer we know He can change things, this is merely a tweaking. Our dominion was a gift. In each of us (believer and unbeliever alike) dwells the Spirit of the Father. If we assume He can only be this on acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then we place man-made limitations on Him. We are told He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust hence He is no respecter of persons. He loves us all. Religion ordains conditions and keeps us in bondage of the lies of satan, hence we do not seem to move forward or experience the Father's Full Love for us.

God is not a man that He should lie, neither are His ways our ways or His thoughts our thoughts. I am only beginning to understand this Awesome Love the Father has for us. No words can describe it, the best I have is UNCONDITIONAL.

Of all the gifts Paul speaks of, Love/Charity is all important, the rest all wane by comparison. Focus on His Love for you and you will never be disappointed, furthermore, sin will take a back seat.

I am not perfect, but the Father/Christ in me is.

Blessings

Next study:John 9 - Blindness and sin

This is very exciting that you are voicing this, Seeker. This is exactly what I have been studying lately. I have been learning some very astounding things recently, and interesting enough, they have been in front of our very faces all along.

"NOW we are the sons of God..." 1 John 3:2

Jesus said the He and the Father are one. He also said "I am the vine, you are the branches."

The branches are an extension of the vine and are part of the vine.

We are literally a part of God. We are altogether one.

The direction that I am moving now may be a little to controversial for this forum, but it seems that you are on the same track, Seeker.

There is much more to talk about on this subject.

Hey Seeker,
I keep coming getting drawn back to this thread over and over again.
It's seriously working out my pondering muscles.

Can you expand on the above?
Do you believe that Jesus was just a regular ol' guy (who was born to parents in the normal, natural way)but then God chose him to show others who the Father is..? Or...


I'm kind of confused. I know that your post goes so much far beyond what I'm asking, and I really am getting the point of your post, but my mind always has to unravel the "basic" things a person is saying first, because those basic things will drive me crazy not knowing if I'm understanding what a person is saying or not. I can still glean the information, but like I said... i need to get the basics cleared up so I can dive in a little easier.

Who was Jesus?

Thanks Seeker..
sparrow

Thanks Seeker.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I appreciate your sharing what you did. I've always felt that the birth and death had a somewhat enlarged focus...and the things He taught were kind of pushed aside...

Still seeking and pondering..

I re-edited this study, my grammar was very bad - still is. It is better now and should make more sense.

Blessings

Why WAS he baptised? I never quite understood that...

..or wht did He not baptise and only His diciples?

Wow, this just keeps getting better It is still a little hard for me trying to understand this apart from my 'trinity' thinking, which is why it is so sad the extent religious traditions has jacked up my brain. I am just now getting free of feeling guilty for what seemed like everything. It is so freeing to rid my mind of thinking God is angry at me, it is so freeing to not think about how I'm 'backsliding' by not going to church, it is so freeing to see this matrix for what it is, and to not find my identity with it anymore. I am working on understanding the in between stuff, what Jesus was really saying to us. God is really using this forum to do great things in us and I am so glad He led me to it!