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byron

I appreciate that you posted that link, you can see what I pointed out about Sherrys preaching, anyone whose eyes have been opened in spirit can see that this is not the truth being preached, you know as well that there are many folks who are caught up in the clutches of this religious hoopala and even promote it,The false unity in religion never stands in the truth, it is built up by the works of man like the high towers and strongholds built on the plain of Shinar at Babylon, babylon is fallen, the spirit gives us eyes to see religion for what it is , there are still many who listens to the OT Jahovah too much who are walking in fear and can't see past it yet so pretend at unity by painting it on with religion where there is no unity outside of the truth, it appears that in religion there are two things : one: is there are followers of men who exhalt and Idolize those they follow and two: there are leaders who build up a following of men that idolize and exhalt these leaders they follow without questioning any futher , the opposite sides of the same religious coin.

I suppose articles preached and written about like the article in this link Byron posted would market well outside of religion as science fiction, buy an orgone blaster,pull up a chair, read a science fiction novel and enter the world of the make believe science fiction.


Peace,
Fire Walker

That's why I spoke with the Gnostic guy so much because he seemed to understand the simple God-in-man concept but when pressed they have these wild theories and orbs and sophia on and on and on.



Yes TV is exactly where I've seen SO MANY when they have to start rejecting a God of violence and bloodshed and wrath. It's a very important and powerful step.

I PM'ed him with an invite to here and a link to this thread.

I'm convinced that the whole religious thing is attractive to folks just as science fiction is. The UFO story is not so different than Lucifer falling out of the sky and we do have the supposed angels mating with humans thing right there in the bible.

Really fun stuff

What's wild is there are 'end time' groups saying that Obama is a Nephilim and that's why the confusion over his birth certificate (non-human father) and that the half demon/humans are among us a regular people - it could actually get dangerous. They believe the Nephilim do not have human souls so it's not murder to kill one (!).

But is it really much crazier than buying miracle spring water from some televagelist? Not that much IMO

This is a great discussion thread !

As for the inner voice telling me whatsright etc I have to be wary because in the old days it told me election was right and almost everybody was going to haayiil (in my best Ernest Angley accent).

The problem is the OT is just so contrary and different than Jesus in terms of personality and message. I mean, Ps 137 rejoices in smashing Babylonian baby heads..would Jesus? No. Well if God spoke through the Psalmist, God sure does! Further problem is that according to the NT Jesus endorsed the OT completely when he quoted Isaiah and Psalms etcetc. But what do we really KNOW Jesus said?? There is evidence that monks etc edited the NT like crazy and even added language about handling snakes etc. and also the line that says.."these three then" which establishes the Trinity. Personally I DO NOT think the Holy Spirit is a separate person from Jesus and God but this monk sure did! If he is, he sure doesnt act like a 3rd autonomous entity. By the way, anyone ever heard John Prine's song "Jesus: the Missing Years" Hilarious http://www.radioparadise.com/content.ph ... ng_id=2397

So what exactly did Jesus say and how did he view the smashing baby heads line? Cant wait to ask him!! Also how about the king the promised to burn his daughter alive if he won the battle? And he kept his promise!! Note the OT doesn't mention that God took exception..isn't this lunacy? Jesus has no problem with this King? Why isn't it recorded as a sin or that God objected? The same with the 1000 wives, sex slaves the stealing the killing, the lying and deceit and treachery of David the man after God's own heart.etcetc these Kings were horrible..and God approves? Give me a break..my take is Jesus did NOT endorse the OT as he is quoted as doing and God sure isn't into the horrors of that book. The OT seems like an ancient book of fables like the other ancient writings and that it reflects the values of ancient man in all his misogynistic "glory".. Where this leaves me in terms of a name for my faith I have NO idea and I don't care.

As for aliens..I believe they exist because I think its absurd to think they dont given the sheer statistics..also we have Apollo astronauts with PhDs who are sane and scholarly who matter of factly state they have been briefed by the military brass that aliens do in fact exist..either these guys are lying or nuts like Josh McDowell says about Jesus. Plus, how do you explain all those cave drawings of men in rockets? "Heyyy Mr. Spaceman wont you please take me aloong?, I wont do anything wrong!!" ((The Byrds)) The origins of Man are verrryy interesting given the genetic DNA evidence of 1 Adam and 1 Eve..and our sudden appearance on the scene long after animals were around..either God planted us here or aliens did some DNA work..evolution from apes mystifies archaeologists who cannot explain mans sudden emergence as a skilled rational hunter gatherer..see the book: Before the Dawn for a easy to read scientific and secular treatment of Mans origins..and no he does not mention the Grays!! I don't want to start a debate with the Darwin ideologues however who cling to their faith that there's no god and we all came from slime the evidence be damned!! Same as the evangeloonies who say the earth is 6000 years old and Noah really did cram 10 million species onto a boat! Only problem is the Hindus tell the same story but explain their survival by saying they climbed a big mountain! Dern pagans!!

I dont think Satan is Jehova either but who really knows..I think we know very very little about what the true ultimate reality is..and thats OK by me!!

I was reading somewhere and perhaps some of you might know more on this, that in ancient cultures it was very common to have an oral then to write a history for your peoples. It wasnt the point to orrally pass down or write facts but to teach and inspire. And also raise your tribe above other tribes and set yourselves apart and over the rest of the lands and peoples.

who really knows?

I pretty much don't really care about the parts of the bible that don't coincide with what I believe about God.


I don't think it's ever bothered me. To be honest, there qutie a big chunk of the bible I haven't read because I just turned from it. and never felt an urge to go back. And I'm fine with that.

Everyone has given me much food for thought with your posts. It's amazing how much clearer I can see things since I no longer allow the church to try to force me to believe the bible is the inherrant, infallable Word of God. There are a lot of good things in the bible, such as the Psalms, Proverbs with their rules for living. But, the 2 faced God who, on the one hand, tells his people it's sin to murder, in the next breath tells His people to murder Caananites, Hivites etc. just because they want their land. Abraham and his relatives seemed to do quite well without land. So much bloodshed over land and it hasnt' stopped. The Palestians and Israelites are still fighting over land.

I just received the book "Misquoting Jesus The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why". Here's a synopsis of what I've read so far. I used to believe that when the scribes and copyists copied a book, whether the bible, other books, or other documents, that they were very meticulous in their transcribing. I was told they counted each and every letter to make sure they had it copied accurately. But, it turns out this isn't necessarily so. Many of the copyists were very meticulous and some weren't. But, it was almost certain that mistakes would be made for many reasons.....they may have misread the page, not seen some of the writing or deliberatly left out whole passages. Also, many of the texts were letters pegged together such as in this statement: thisisthedaythatthelordhasmadeiwillrejoiceandbegladinit. No punctuation, spacing of words or capitalization of words,So, the chance of copying a passage wrong increased when words weren't seperated.

We don't know for sure what Jesus said and what he didn't say because all we have are copies of copies of copies. How true to the original any of the copies are is anyones guess. Also, copying into another language can take away from the original meaning. Plus, when the Latin Vulgate was widely used, it became the version that the KJV was copied from. Now we are 2,000 years from the original sayings and writing so how the hell are we supposed to know what Jesus said or didn't say? Bart in Misquoting Jesus says that the woman taken in adultery story wasn't in the original bible. I love that story, and even if it wasn't, it just has the love of God all over it and I think it's a beautiful story of forgiveness, compassion and love.

I think this book will go down as one of the books that will change my coarse forever. Although it has tossed me around - I felt a strong sense of peace today -- a feeling like a war inside of me was finally over and many questions have been answered.

I'm ordering that Jehovah Unmasked book next month. Maybe we can discuss it after I've read it? Or anyone else who wants to can join in. It sounds like a really good book.

As soon as you ask that question most Christians either chide you for questioning it or a little doubt creeps in and the earth falls out from under their feet. That's why so much time and effort goes into proving accuracy and authenticity. Inerrantists claim 99.8 percent accuracy and skeptics say "no way". The truth may be somewhere in between?

Jephthah (a judge) had made the vow and kept it. It would be nice if the authors had added "Don't make hasty vows and be a dumbass like Jephthah - it may cost you" or something to that effect, but what Jephthah did went against laws forbidding human sacrifice. I must say that's one of the saddest stories EVER - especially when he breaks the news to her and her and her friends go and cry and mourn that she will die without ever getting married. I actually cried the first time I read that! Also note that a burnt offering was always killed first (never burned alive) but it interesting that Abraham had no laws written to appeal back to God when commanded to slay Issac and offer him up.


But there is some great stuff there - including "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself."
With a clear statement there of the highest moral law known to man it makes me wonder if it really was God speaking but they could not understand what it meant???

And again - the NT has great stuff too but in ways is much more harsh than the OT. The really strangest thing to me is from the (much disputed) text in Mark which basically says (my paraphrase) "Go tell everyone the GREAT news. And if they don't believe you? Damn them to hell!"



Anything is possible but if the universe is in fact as large as we think it could still take a few million years for the aliens to reach us once our radio waves gave us away. A few million years that is - IF they can travel at the speed of light. But as I said "anything is possible" especially with wormholes and such


The Christian evolutionists are a strange breed - like us! The apparent sudden appearance does create huge problems for hardcore macros.


Whatever else Paul (the apostolic one) was, he WAS a genius. I noticed on some of the Christian alien sites Paul was being bashed as a false apostle and is blamed for doing away with God's law. Colossians 2:14 "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross".

This is a strange verse saying that the law was opposed to us, and was our 'adversary'.



Yep. My problem is the inquiring mind thing. I want to know everything.

Wow, I think that must be a wonderful thing to have been able to do that for so long.

I think me being married to someone in ministry has made this time really hard for me. :)

I think this is the first time I've ever admitted that I haven't read parts of the bible. Most people will think, "oh well if you haven't read every single page of the bible, then you have no idea what you're talking about then, your truth is baseless!!"

I just never felt the urge to try to fit that stuff into my picture of God. I know there are layers to peel back... but I just, I don't know... I just got to a point where I felt, ok... I see this beautiful picture, how could it possibly get more beautiful? I didn't want to weed through all the stuff, the violence, the confusion.

Maybe I got lazy.
That's entirely possible.
Or maybe I just didn't want my beautiful, intense picture that I feel explains the meaning of life, to be somehow corrupted or chipped away at.
I didn't trust that other stuff, it didn't bring up the right feelings in me so I just didn't force myself to become entrapped in it. I think in my mind, I just kept thinking "no. Go away. I don't like you. This doesn't fit. This little puzzle piece doesn't fit and so... just go away little puzzle piece. you are not needed." lol

I hope that makes sense.
I hang onto my picture of God like grim death.
My knuckles are white from clutching it so tightly... I'm a little protective of it, I guess.
Hopefully, that's a good thing, and not a bad thing.

Now that I think of it... I don't think anything CAN ever chip away at my picture.
hmmm. Maybe one day I will go back and read the stuff I pushed away and see what happens.
But I'll wait until the feeling comes over me.
It hasn't happened yet.

Shibboleth
I would LOVE to discuss it!!! And I know Seeker is reading it and GIL has read it.

It will well be worth to read - it set me FREE!

Well, I went ahead and ordered Jehovah Unmasked today. If it's that good, I just can't wait to get started in it.

Anyway, I have an old KJV Bible that has lots of margins and I'm reading the OT and marking every passage that is either confusing, contradictory or hard to fathom. If you want to start the discussion right away, I could always follow along and look up the scriptures you quote. Otherwise, my book will be here in a few weeks. Oh, I'm so excited about reading this book!!!

I think conservative religion is a damaging hurtful thing and one sign of recovery is simply not caring about what "they" think about any of one's beliefs..

I finished reading the book and although I scanned through many pages, I did read the last few chapters. Pretty much of what he says we have already discussed and come to the same or similar conclusions in our own ways. I may read it at length later on but I have the gist of what he is saying.

LoT you seem to have a hangup with the gnostic angle. IMO he is merely aligning his thoughts with another boxed POV or IOW a label of sorts.

I read much the same approach and historical facts in CU and in the Red letter bible folks or JWO. These elected to still hold to certain beliefs and invent a new SoF.

We choose what we want to believe in.

When you go through the process of elimination on what is true or not, what contradicts or not etc. whatever you are left with is the truth you will likely hold onto. Probably the single biggest disappointment folk find themselves in is that there is no second coming, no rapture, no new kingdom etc. The reality is no one has returned from the dead with proof of either heaven or hell so we choose to believe that these exist or not.

The secular Jesus approach I now have is more in tune to what exists in my reality of the world. His teachings are universal and anyone can take something away from them.

I read some of the reviews of Jehovah Unmasked on this thread as well as the Amazon site. Here is one of the reviews that pretty much says all of the things the book talked about were already known. Here's the quote:


› See more 5 star, 4 star reviews
2 of 7 people found the following review helpful:
Disappointing
I bought this book based on the rave reviews posted in Amazon. If you are looking for a scholarly, unbiased book on the origins of Jehovah, this isn't it. Most of the "great revelations" are well known and are discussed in many scholarly works, popular literature, and even textbooks. Published 7 months ago by Al

› See more 3 star, 2 star, 1 star reviews
What I find interesting about the part I've posted in blue, is that he talks about scholarly works and textbooks having already discussed much of what's in Jehovah Unmasked. What bothers me about his statements is that all these scholary sorts AKA preachers, priests, pastors, etc. never told the church any of these things. So, if the priests, pastors etc. DON"T have an infallible, inerrant bible, how are they going to make the sheep mind them? They certainly can't appeal to the infallible bible if they themselves know the bible in fallible. Can you imagine a preacher standing in his pulpit saying that he thinks this part of the bible may be true, but he can't be sure because it's been proven that parts of the bible aren't true? The doctrine of an infallible bible and hellfire are the two beliefs that has kept Christians on a leash for over 1,000 years. You know, I see so much more unity here on FT than I did in the churches that have one belief system that everyone who is a member must adhere to. We all, on FT, have many different beliefs about a number of issues, yet we are able to love each other in the "spirit and truth" of true fellowship. I truly hope more people will come out of Babylon and read this book.

Wow, GiL, that was great! Thanks for taking the time to express your views.

I don’t have the book in question but have arrived at the same conclusions based on my own research, as Bernie points out. I also agree that everybody can learn something from Jesus but I don’t see Him as the only method of enlightenment nor do I insist that others believe that He is God in the Flesh. On this point of Orthodox Christian Dogma, I’m completely agnostic as it simply doesn’t seem necessary to me. It is also a major point of contention between Judaism and Christianity and I don’t see that any good has come from it. So, I’m fine with a divine Jesus or Bernie’s “secular” Jesus.

Now since Gnostic ideas came up, I just wanted to mention that I’m personally drawn to the Gnostic idea of awareness because it fits almost perfectly with my experience. I’m not adverse to the idea that a little of “the kingdom” (or God) is in all of us and the Father reveals this to us (awakens the spark) when we are ready and/or are seeking. (See Psalms 82:6, Isaiah 41:23, John 10:34, Rom 1:19-20). The central theme of the Gospel of Thomas is that “the Kingdom is within us all”, an idea that tracts nicely with John 10:34. However, the aliens and other stuff I don’t buy – it’s just silly to me.

I am also very skeptical of some of the writings attributed to Paul as he is almost single handedly responsible for bringing the “blood washing” angry god of the OT into the NT Church. Paul’s “gospel” seems quite different from the one presented by Jesus. His doctrines of predestination, his dislike of women, spiritual gifts, tongues, baptism of the dead, the catching up (rapture?) thingy and his insistence that God can violate His own rules (Romans 9) make me think that he missed most of Jesus’ message.

Even Jesus (allegedly) had some very hard sayings and parables that are not consistent with the Spirit’s witness to me. Perhaps, we can talk about these sometime. And don’t think the book of Revelation should have ever been in the canon. It depresses me (sometimes) that the concept of hell (mistranslations and all) shows up on Jesus’ watch. Like Byron said, the implications of a place of eternal suffering are NT ideas and are actually worse than the temporal death caused by all the wacking and slashing of the OT.

Yes, like GiL, I’m a big “Cherry Picker” but so are even the most adamant inerrantist. I have never personally met one that I liked. They seem to have all the answers, are big into Bible Wars and are absolutely sure God is on their side. These folks repulse me on every level but, admittedly, I have grown learning to deal with them.

I think it’s tragic that some of the kindest and most loveable people I know are either “non-religious” or agnostics or atheists. Religion, Orthodox Christianity included, appears toxic to me. I think that both John the Baptist and Jesus were trying to correct a corrupt religion and set us free to truly love God in Spirit and Truth. This is how I want to live, even if it means that I will never again darken the door of another sanctuary.

In His Love, John

Hi Debra

Well it is like what I said. If you google Jesus words only, you will find somewhere a book also in PDF format and it has the gist as the main chapters dealing specifically with the history of the church, the canon of the bible, its corruption etc.

I do not agree with the blue bit as this is simply a brush off. We study collate our information and make decisions of belief based on that - the chances of two people going through an identical process of information is very slim.

Initially I was opposed to the JWO folk because they still held in part to the OT and in essence formed their own new SoF. Meaning that their book only really gave me information of history which I found corroborated elsewhere.

We that are here have journeyed beyond the confines of CU and where they stopped. That was merely a stepping stone on the journey out. I still had too many questions not addressed by CU and it is as if they journeyed further then came to a halt and then built a whole new theology around their "pause" Many are obviously frightened of losing it all and see a possible atheist outlook as the final outcome. For many this is the the outcome but for most of what I have seen discussing with atheists, the reasons for dismissal are more intellectual than spiritual. IOW, they dismissed the ET version w/o the gradual steps out.

I guess when you come to CU with a no hell scenario, it makes that transition to atheism easier on the conscience. My guess is that many of these folk have attained a higher level w/o being aware of it but because they do not adhere to the system trends and teachings anymore, they label themselves as atheists.

Like the author states, the letter kills but the spirit brings life. What spirit is that? Can it be the HS? I doubt it as that implies thus that the HS is also a deceiver of men as there are so many "led by the spirit" folk that disagree with each other.

If there is a singularity god consciousness, then that has to be universal and non conflicting. Do we find that in reality? No.

Thus whatever god is, must transcend even what we think we know OR the god experience is personal and unique. Maybe we are just too much in a habit to seek peer acceptance of our beliefs that we once again seek the group think scenario; afraid that we may be losing it.

There is no label that fits me now but I see this author has had a similar journey out - only folk on similar journeys will understand his stuff or relate to it. Aligning with Gnosticism is merely another pause in the journey.

At the end of the day, we all create our own reality to cope with whatever situations we face. Where I am at, will I now go back to what I was 20 years ago? Certainly not. That is like returning to an age of ignorance. We live and learn and the cycle goes on and on till we die.

Is there a heaven or an afterlife? I don't know and I really do not care anymore. If after my neurons stop firing and my brain stops working and then there is nothing, will I even be aware of it? No. If there is something after, then it is a bonus but I imagine it will be quite different to what we have been taught.

This author tries to make sense of all that goes wrong in this world while an Omni-god sits back and is either incapable or does not care.

what amazing thoughts you all share here.

I am an open one, except to the dogmas Ive left behind haha

I am very much about freedom! I can find folks from all persuasions that are on a similar level of consciousness to relate to, whether they are athiest, agnostic, sufi, gnostic, hindu, buddhist, christian.......I guess in reality what I tend to gravitate towards are those that are evolving in Love. Whatever persuasion they are of its the one language I am driven to communicate with.

The other older languages and consciousness that Ive left behind, I cant just go back too.

I can recall thinking and believing that way and how much it meant to me but I cannot like you said Seeker return. Not unless God felt I hadnt grasped something well enough and stuck me back there like ole King Neb reverted to his beastly consciousness (of course that is about reincarnation to many but I tend to see it more on a spiritual level speaking of consciousness)

love to you all

your me mates! I wouldnt want to be without you!

Sometimes, I think it's good to just leave everything behind.
Just not read anything that anyone else believes.
Put all of it away from you.

And just kinda be still.
Because we get to a point, sometimes where we're just tired.
Toss it all on a shelf in your mind and let it gather dust for awhile.

Totally agree Sparrow! Ive done that too.

I tend to go thru seasons, reading everything in sight to reading nothing but my own heart. lol

I honestly cant wait to enter that silent season again but am still pretty driven to investigate at this point in time. :)

Absolutely, Sparrow! I kinda found this out the hard way. It’s been said of me, that I never doing anything calmly that can be done furiously. But, there is a limit to all of this no matter what the endeavor. When I reflect on my life it does appear that my greatest time of growth, especially spiritual growth, occurred in the “quiet” or “away” times!

I had a conversation with my Mom the other day and she attends some 'spiritual' seminars and I tell you - the stuff they teach would scare a fundie to DEATH

One thing she told me that stuck out is that we must we willing to let go of every belief and concept - ALL - the good the bad and the ugly. Even the former 'highs' experienced with God (I thought of you Christine) in order to move on.

That sounded scary to me and I asked her "What about fundamentals, like believing "God is love?" and she said that if I was not willing to question even that concept and let it go I would never really know if it was real. When you are willing question EVERYTHING, the things which are real will show themselves.

Wow. The older I get - the smarter my Mother gets!

I agree with your Mom Byron

I did time even questioning if God is Love, if Jesus really existed, and a host of other questions that I never ever thought I would wrestle wtih.

It did me good, it may happen again too. At this time in my life I dont care anymore if God takes something from me. In fact I just told Him, you know even if everything I now hold to is taken, I just know somehow Ive entered a rest that will remain.

God is good.

Do you all think everyone will have to go thru this or is it just some in this age? Will many get to slide on thru on their beliefs never having them challanged whether in this age or the next?