God is Love,

WOW - now the book has gotten very powerful! OMG - it is so obvious that there is a different God in the OT!!!!! It's so obvious!
Now I know why all those many years ago I heard a whisper say "The old leads to death and the new leads to life" when I was getting ready to study the old...



If you can get past that Gnostic push - for sure this book is a must read... It will totally mess up the religious mindset!

Wow Julie, I really never even completely thought through what I stated or why. I guess I'm saying that when we read our carnal mind sees one thing and our spiritual mind sees something else and that if someone reads the bible (old or new testament) strictly from a literal/carnal/physical view then it definitely brings death as in "The letter kills".

I believe the writers of the bible saw themselves and their state of mind and attributed them to God and God's mind. Your response made me realize just how odd my experience with the bible was.

Since I had a clear picture of God's nature from the beginning I could read right past the words in front of me. Really, it's almost like I was in a trance and could see that about 90% of what I was reading was a facade covering a secret truth. My carnal mind would see threats of death as applying to it while my spiritual mind would rejoice at the freedom which came from the death of dark carnal thoughts. So in a sense I guess I was twisting "violent language into something good" because I couldn't attribute anything to God that I knew wasn't His core nature.

I hope this makes sense and obviously you are a spiritual person and so reject the notion of God's violence as I do. Most people I know who are deep seekers start with the literal and end up where we are at w/this.

Byron here is my thoughts as I again meditated on this some more. See if you can relate at all to them. Im trying to fully understand what is happening within me lol

I have been thinking more on this whole thing and I did edit a little in that not everyone would be spiritualizing without seeing the brutality first. Some are like a kid in a candy store not even really noticing how the candy was made thru an incredibly violent way. I think Ive been that way in the past for a little bit.

But then, perhaps some act as bodhisattvas if you will, saviors. Redeeming the OT by cleansing it and raising it up. Knowingly saving. The reason I was thinking about that is because it is how I saw it for a while. I even heard inside at times the joy in the spiritual realms when another dead letter was raised to life!

And Ive been thinking about how at that time I was believing that was part of 'to the pure all things are pure' for me.

But now to me the First Pure has to trump it All and be the true reality beyond realities if you will.

The First Pure came in the likeness of sinful flesh but was without sin. First Pure.

Its almost to me as if Im traveling back to the beginning in my knowing.

To where the First Pure becomes all the bread and wine one desires to live on.

Here are the four books I ordered a few ays ago about the subject of the reliability of the Bible. Here are their titles and authors.

"Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" by Bart D, Ehrman

"Jesus interrupted: (Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible and Why We Don't Know About Them) by Bart D. Ehrman

"God's Problem: How the Bible fails to Answer Our Most Important Questions about Why We Suffer" by Bart D. Ehrman

"The Amazing Aims and Claims of Jesus: What You Didn't Learn in Church" by Anthony Buzzard

Has anyone read any of these books? If not, I can give my book report on them after I've read them. The titles are so intriging though. I've read alot of Buzzards stuff on internet but haven't read any of Barts.

Also, I'm on an ET forum and another universalist put up a thread entitled Why do you love God? which I posted an answer and said why I didn't love the OT God who told his people to rape, pillage, murder, kidnap etc. So far only 2 people have tried to defend this barbaric behavior, and the ones who are the "smartest" haven't said a word.

Hi Hidden

Yeah Im still processing that book lol

Christianity would have been very different if it had just not attached itself to the OT.

There were like he points out in the book those that pushed for the seperation but they were deemed heretics and shut up and in fact most of them killed.

Our country alone has spent how many millions of dollars funding Israels violence for how many years because the bible tells us too. While they laugh all the way to the bank.

But why should we jetison the OT if it is the word of God? If it is, then were stuck with it..how do we determine what it is? As for me, if it seems like some fanatic, or zionist wrote a certain part, I ignore it.

Hey Dr G: So you ignore stuff that doesn't make sense or is overtly Evil - exactly, me too!

Hey Shib:

I have two of Bart’s Books, Misquoting Jesus and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. These were interesting, but they didn’t produce any real “smoking guns” which is what I was looking for. I’m not at all worried about the accuracy of the Biblical text we have unless these “errors” caused a MAJOR change in the way the religion was practiced.

For instance, in Misquoting Jesus, Bart states that the misquotes have little or no impact on the doctrinal or dogmatic elements of Orthodox Christianity. I was disappointed when I read this, I mean, what’s the point, right? But, I would still be interested in anything you have to share from these books that you find of value.

In His Love, John

Shibboleth - Lets us know how they are! And thanks for the names.


GIL

I read more today - have about 1/5 left!!!

Your right in that one could be better off just having the NT!

I think this book will go down as one of the books that will change my coarse forever. Although it has tossed me around - I felt a strong sense of peace today -- a feeling like a war inside of me was finally over and many questions have been answered.

I noticed in your recent posts that you sense something happen since you read this? Or was it before?

Truth is truth - its either truth or a lie...... I think that to walk in truth is to draw a line...

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Information on Marcion
Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God.

Marcion was excommunicated from the Roman church c. 144 CE, but he succeeded in establishing churches of his own to rival the catholic Church for the next two centuries.

Marcion is often thought to have first established an explicit canon. Marcion's canon consisted of the Euangelion, or the Gospel of the Lord, and the Apostolikon, ten epistles of Paul, not including the pastorals. There is debate over whether Marcion truncated Luke and Paul or whether later orthodox scribes may have expanded them in some cases.

Marcion receives derogatory references from contemporary apologist Justin Martyr and heresiologist Irenaeus of Lyons. We can reconstruct Marcion's writings through the references in Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem and Epiphanius' Panarion.

This one is especially telling
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/ ... hesis.html

Yes I relate. First love/first knowing. All the study - all the learning - all the pathways eventually circle back to where it all started.

I guess it is a bit confusing how much the bible played a role in my spiritual growth - so much so that even while totally questioning it's validity I simultaneously am found defending it to some extent. After your response to my initial "A spiritual mind gets a spiritual thing" assessment I had to go back and figure out what all this means. I even dreamed about this thread!!!

Wow.

GIL's Link on Marcion is better than mine! I think that means girls are smarter (or maybe just more diligent) than guys!

Yes!

I have been in some long conversations with a 'Gnostic Christian' and they take this concept to an extreme - even saying that this physical universe was literally created by an evil deity. In the CG view Jesus comes - sent by the highest deity (the Father) to rescue us and straighten everything out (in the long run).

There are some really strange twists and turns in CG theology, much more like Greek mythology than anything monotheistic.

If you want to read some articles by someone who is way out in that corner of religion that preaches and believes that the Jahovah of the OT is the only true God
read some of Sherry Shriners articles and writings, also the NWO prophesies for the last days,and actualy it is preaching like this that to me unmasks Jahovah as the God of this world only, a God with duelistic personality and who is an angry God seeking revenge, I wouldn't need to read any futher than that to "SEE" that what is being preached by Sherry Shriner and many others for that matter is not about the gospel of Christ nor true of our Heavenly Father.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Fire Walker,

I used to read Sherry's stuff and I have to tell you I believe that there is something VERY wrong with them/her beliefs.
Aliens, Paul false apostle, Satan Seed etc. There have been a few things that confirmed but most had my internal alert system going on over drive.

With all that said - I haven't been there is awhile - maybe there is something new?

Sherry? She's burning UFOs from the sky with these:

http://www.orgoneblasters.com/

I agree Byron I get no witness to the gnostic story of creation. Ive read it several times and there is just NO inner witness.

However, I do believe they hit on a truth about gnosis and they were very much rebellious against the status quo and becomging a churched clone. They also recognized that women could be led of the Spirit and allowed women to minister. A very good book on gnosticism is Elaine Pagels book.

Their view of creation to me is lacking and too negative.

The book that LOT is reading is written according to the author to shake folks like you and I up. He is very anti pantheism and therefore very anti panentheism.

He resigns this entire realm to a mistake, including our bodies.

That type of belief leaves me cold. I couldnt live with it, too negative.

I agree with both of you.
The Gnostic view is flawed and warped.

God calls his creation Good!

The garden is what it is:

In our life we have two choices -- Eating from the Spirit or Eating from laws, knowledge and judging good and evil
Two God's - which will we serve
One brings life
One brings death

I missed yours John

I have run into these woo woos as I call them esp. when it comes to UFO's and aliens. Folk are looking for an alternative to believe in as they likely do not like the current vanilla flavor of what's on offer. That said it lends credence to the need to believe in something, anything. I have always wondered why in a nation that is supposed to be so christian that there are so many UFO sightings too. Is there a common thread of delusion there?

I have run into these woo woos as I call them esp. when it comes to UFO's and aliens. Folk are looking for an alternative to believe in as they likely do not like the current vanilla flavor of what's on offer. That said it lends credence to the need to believe in something, anything. I have always wondered why in a nation that is supposed to be so christian that there are so many UFO sightings too. Is there a common thread of delusion there?

Hey Seeker, good to see you! I took a look at her page and she seems to be a little full of herself. Just my opinion, of course.

I think it's mainly the Mormon church that has a high percentage of sightings of UFO's. It must be that magic underwear they wear. I wish these supposed people from other planets would just touch down in a big city somewhere and put an end to all the speculation. It seems their ships touch down in a meadow, forest or some other barren place that hardly anyone ever ventures in.

That must be it. The LDS are really a non issue here very small and maybe that is why we have so few almost negligible reports. One also finds within the fundie camp, an equal belief in UFO's particularly from the rapture ready folk.

All my bags are packed, I'm ready to go....

I've learned that the 'emo' culture LOVES the gnostic view because it fits with their state of depression. I tried to show them the 'all is vanity' story is not the whole story.

I think a lot of the view comes from seeing the brutality and harshness in nature which I know had an impact on you as well Juli.

As far as their historical lifestyle and ethics - it seems to be top notch. Apparently the Nicene Christians pretty much wiped them out. I've read that even when they had a tactical advantage and could have fought and won - they chose to not kill. Wow.

Funny how my explanation for evil has it's cake while it simultaneously gets to eat the cake.

The discussion is ongoing for those of you who would like to read it:

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/ ... f=30&t=300


You'll see the doc Bob (AKA Total Victory) has posted links to non-violent atonement writings. I think his views would actually go well with this thread so I should probably link him here as well.

The "Evangelical Universalist" forum was formed by some who felt tentmaker was getting too liberal (ie: because Bernie and I were questioning scripture) so in essence it's the opposite reaction to the same situation that produced this site. It's basically orthodox Christian minus eternal hell. They are very open to all manner of discussion though and you can question anything and discuss anything. I've known some of the folks there for quite awhile. I introduced myself as "the Panentheist that Auggie (the site administrator) warned you about" LoL

The convo with the CG dude is here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christia ... c-not.html

I jumped in several pages in

Byron

I dont see how anyone can honestly settle on a side on theodicy! I really dont. To me its a mystery that demands to remain a mystery.

Ive looked at so many sides and been on differing sides at differing times.

One thing gnostics believe is that God Himself lowered Himself into creation/matter and went to sleep but put a divine spark in every man that divine spark being the Christ of God. It is He whom thru the ages raises up from the sleep of death that God lowered Himself into (this is why He was given the power to take up His/Gods life) - raises God and all creation up again as One.

A seed cannot bring forth fruit unless it first die....

Was reminded of that for some reason.

Im still with mystery on this one but just thought to add.


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enjoying reading the debate between you and TV,must say I find TV expressing very well a lot of what I feel. I must look more into open theism.

:)