Sparrow when I would have the god blobs thoughts was when I was wishing to disappear! I actually prayed once that annhilation would be true for me. It was kinda a double sided coin for me as to why! On one side it was that I felt such incredible love for God and ecstacy that I wanted to be completely swallowed up into Him and disappear! On the other side I couldnt see how I could ever matter that much and i was in such pain I wanted to dissappear.

I think Im finding rest, I dont know if you can relate to that at all but is just part of my journey of dealing with the godblobs lol

Byron I enjoyed seeing your thought process.

For me at this time it boils down to a language barrier. In that I dont have a taste for violent language anymore. Kind of like your distaste now for meat or anything that is dealt with violently.

I think we are experiencing kind of the same thing but its manifesting differently in our lives.

Mine is manifesting in language, yours in food.

blessings

I had a couple of scary thoughts about this. AISI it's really just a fear of the unknown, ie: "I don't know for sure what it's going to be like or what state I'm going to be in".

Just take everything you know of love joy and peace and multiply that by a trillion and then multiply that by infinity. I think that's a pretty close picture...

Do you mean you can't 'eat' the violent language anymore (ie:read the bible anymore?). I confess I stopped several years ago. I know it like the back of my hand though. Once someone even supported me to study, fast and pray for a full year (!). I learned more of what I already knew.

It's almost like looking into a mirror, what you are is what you see.
If someone has a divine mind he will get a divine thing, if he has a carnal mind he will get a carnal thing; he will see whatever his innermost thought embodies.

P.S. No, I did not fast for the full year Ate just enough to survive though! Yikes!!! S-K-I-N-N-Y

Brother Byron: You know I love you man and I always appreciate your opinions but your explanation of “God’s Plan” and “Core Nature” just doesn’t work for me and since you asked for comments….

The Garden of Eden story is clearly a setup as you point out – on this we agree. But, to me, the supposed actions of “god” in the Garden toward his children are abusive and immoral and certainly against the nature of any good deity. If I did just a small part of this to my kids, the authorities would lock me up and deservedly so!

I see the whole Garden Episode as an ancient myth, very much like other “creation/cause of evil” tales of other (even older) cultures but with three distinct purposes: a) to explain Human Existence and b) the presence of evil and c) to place the blame for evil squarely on the shoulders of Humanity and establish the need for appeasement. BTW, I see “required sacrifice” as the quintessential corruption of the any religion, especially within the Big Three Abrahamic faiths.

So now, with the damage done, and blood sacrifice required to appease an angry “god” , the Hebrew Priesthood could be legitimized to ensure that the illiterate and ignorant masses meet all “obligations to god” in proper (Kosher) fashion.

In my opinion, all of this is just too self serving to the Religious Beaurococy and I don’t buy it. It seems to me that Jesus had issues with Judaism as well. Note the ten’s of times that Jesus was reported to have said, “you have heard, ‘this and that’, but I say unto you ‘a new idea or command’.

As a result, I personally reject any ideas that my Heavenly Father had anything to do with the “Fall of Man” or the requirement of blood sacrifice as recorded in Genesis! But, that’s just me. Maybe I have misread your recent post and if I have, please accept my apologies.

You have every right to your opinion and I do honor that and you, even if we disagree.

In His Love, John

Thanks for your comments John.

I am not saying that God's supposed genocidal tears and punishing were actually God doing anything. I'm saying that the real God allowed (on purpose) this perception of Himself to happen in the darkened minds of men. I am saying there is a purpose for good and evil - not that a literal garden scenario happened but that it is metaphorically describing our general state. The 'death' described after the metaphoric polaristic fruit was ingested is just a reference to sense of separation and futility we experience - which is only possible because of this polarized universe we are in.

In the scenario I described the Father has only the purpose of guiding us back to Himself. Our consciences AND our experiences tell us what is moral and what is love and definitely - it is nothing like the mass slaughter the OT god is described as.

In fact I have only in the last year realized that the slitting of a healthy animal's neck (an animal who feels pain and wants to live just as we feel pain and want to live) is a barbaric/unnatural act. And one we don't need to be healthy - in fact meat consumption is unhealthy for us and our planet. But even the ancients foresaw a day when "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain".

Now, going back to:


Yes, exactly. It was the Hebraic oral tradition which was eventually committed to parchment. As they searched (just as we do) for the ultimate answers and were inspired and sometimes not (just as we are). What's amazing is to see THEIR thought process and how it compares to ours. It's really genius in many ways as they recognized a state of chaos, disorder and futility and sought to explain it's existence and they apparently understood God enough to know that this state isn't 'all that' but they failed to get to the bottom of it. Where they failed - I hope to succeed.

My whole point is that we ARE here and if there is an omnipotent/omniscient Creator then there has to be a reason for all which 'is' to be as it is.

More comments?

GREAT STUFF!!!!!!!

I posted this somewhere else but felt it relevant here:



I read something very interesting the other day. It was breaking down the different interpretations for different stories in the Bible.

It spoke about that one of the interpretations regarding the Garden and Adam and Eve was that it symbolized the Jews and how they choose the "LAW" (Knowledge of Good and Evil) instead of "The Spirit" (Walking with God).

And isnt that the battle we face? When we eat from the wrong tree we have a guilty conscience. One that says - surely I need to sacrifice something to please God - better fast, better read my Bible, better tithe...... the need to clear our conscience by "Sacrifice".

Yet - when we choose to believe Jesus's message which was "Father loves you" and you can come to Him as you are" and we choose to no longer live by the LAW (trying to figure out what is right and wrong, going by a rule book) - we suddenly enter the KINGDOM filled with all the fruits available in the Kingdom. Our conscience filled with Guilt does not allow us to inherit that place.Our conscience screams out to us - we need to make a sacrifice!!

I believe the other God that wars with us is attached to THE LAW - THE LAW KILLS! Whenever I sense it around me its dark.

Hey Byron: I think I understand your point better now – thanks for being patient with me!

Hey Christine: Very well sad! I think I needed that! And sorry for Hi-Jacking your Thread!

Hope all of you on the forum have a blessed Sunday!

In His Love, John

Just my 2 cents:

Our view of God and understanding of Love would be NOTHING if we didn't experience a stepping back away from God and go through these contrasts. It is impossible to clearly see, truly understand and appreciate something to the maximum unless you have experienced the contrast, the opposite, separation, etc.

God was absolutely behind the "fall" of man. Absolutely. If he wasn't, then God would absolutely not be God. He would be some sort of God-in-training who, once he turn his back on his creation, then it all started to fall apart. Impossible if you are God. Just... impossible.

For everything in creation to be REAL... it has to be this way. It's so funny, (well actually not funny) that christians talk about this "Realness" in such a backwards way. They say "god doesn't want robots, god wants your love... it has to be, you have to CHOOSE him.... otherwise it's not real".
You big dummies!! This WORLD, this EXPERIENCE is UNIVERSALLY teaching ALL of us how to BE REAL for GOD. Yes, GOD wants LOVE to be real. He wants our love for him and our love for the rest of creation to be REAL and meaningful!!! But this desire of God's for us to become real and not robots has nothing to do with this "choose him or burn in hell" nonsense. ugh. So many great concepts are twisted into something completely different and then the whole original meaning gets lost and covered up.

It's true... if we lived in a perfect world from the beginning and NEVER experienced ANYTHING else... we would be... cardboard cut-out people. We would NOT BE REAL. We may as well just be a god-blob.

What is the worst that can happen to us? Physical pain, emotional pain and death.
These will be no more. If THIS present world were eternal, than yes.... God would be a monster.
But God isn't a monster. He is allowing us this FREEDOM of contrasts, no matter how far on the contrast scale it goes... it will all work toward a higher good.

It's as if God sent us to this schoolyard and allowed us to take two backpacks. One backpack contains love. The other is empty, void of love. We constantly switch backpacks back and forth throughout our lives, throughout each and every day. Though the one backpack is empty...it is the one that is heavier and more cumbersome. We are here for a truly awesome reason. Look at it for what it is... we were CREATED by a being who desires for us to live IN HARMONY for all eternity. LET THAT SINK IN. WE were CREATED by some unbelievable GRAND BEING who WILL HAVE us live in PERFECT, BEAUTIFUL, HARMONY...

HARMONY!!!!!!!!!!

for
all

ETERNITY.

That is INCREDIBLE!

Stop.
Think about that for a minute.
Just 60 seconds. think about that!!

Yes. We HAVE to go through this schoolyard.... and allow humans to resist that backpack filled with love as much as they need to, as far as they want to take it in order to truly realize that GOD LOVES THEM and LOVE CONQUERS ALL. And evil (which is basically just the OPPOSITE of love, that other empty backpack, if you will) is truly WEAK, so weak that it will become EXTINCT in due time, NEVER AGAIN to exist for ALL ETERNITY.

We MUST walk through this jungle.
It makes perfect sense.
No matter how horrible the headlines become.... no matter how shocking the evil becomes... it has to be played out once an for all.
The opposite of love, must be explored until it is exhausted so that we can all TRULY live in harmony FOREVER and so that we can truly SEE and understand who this AMAZING GRAND BEING called GOD really is. THIS life is such a gift. With it's contrasts, of love and non-love, we are experiencing this for an AMAZING, AMAZING, reason!!!! We are going to be completely blown away once we rise up above this life and see the big picture. This life makes perfect sense.

God knows this.

--------------------------------------------------



Something I ponder:
Can God's plans ever be thwarted? Sometimes I think yes, but only in the sense that he just maps out a new direction. Map out a location, go to drive it and suddenly the road is blocked with construction barriers. You must map out an alternate route. But ultimately... you will arrive at the same destination. You just had to go a slightly different route. But the end result is the SAME.

Nothing can ever thwart God's plans.
I don't think God WANTS humans to take the empty backpack (void of love) as far as it will go... God desires us to wear the backpack filled with love, but He also knows that in order to be ABLE to wear that backpack of love and understand what it is, it is absolutely necesary to be supplied with the backpack that is void of love.

But.. the farthest a person can possibly take "evil"... will be the fartherst on the opposite end of the spectrum that God will show the power of love. Love conquers all. There is nothing we can do to escape the love of God. WE are learning MANY, MANY, MANY things on this short field trip. More things than we really can comprehend.


Well... just some thoughts.
On my path right now, this is just the way I see it.

peace...

I am glad to see this thread thriving. For years now, the notions of inerrancy and divine inspiration have seemed absurd to me. I think the bible is largely a compendium of fanciful or manipulative writings from various motives put together by religious shamans both Jewish and Catholic. So, hopefully the "bible" will be seen for what it is before nutty fundies and Zionistas use it to start WW III (and I never get to drive my "new" restored 64 Chevy Impala!)

There are still the fundamental questions such as...

1. If God is "good" why do little girls get raped and then murdered with an omnipotent God standing by doing nothing, knowing it was going to happen before it did? How can idiot ministers pontificate how "God works all trials for our benefit" in the face of facts such as these? How does such a trial help the 1,000s of such murdered children? If the above scenario doesn't suit you feel free to substitute in any other horror of your choice..perhaps the murder and destruction of 200,000 civilians in Dresden, or multitudes of Palestinians, Armenians, Jews, or Russian Christians, or the 1000's of girls sold into slavery every year from Eastern Europe (the list of atrocities he allows is endless).

2. Why did the "church" get so thoroughly polluted with soul and mind destroying dogma? Why would He allow a church which was then and now his main organization on earth kill millions in witch hunts from 1400-1700? Read "A Delusion of Satan" by Frances Hill for a truly disgusting and chilling historical picture of what Puritans do when their mental cancer runs wild without "evil" secularists to restrain them and they have only "god" and the bible to inspire and guide them. (locking up 4 1/2 year old girl in a dungeon for 8 months as a suspected witch..(and,yes she went insane).. Is it not disturbing that these monsters were trying their best to be as purely "christian" as possible? Some Swiss villages murdered almost all their females in their lovely christian zeal to be like Christ. Why has mankind been so hopelessly confused about God for over 10,000 years? In physics, mathematics, chemistry and other sciences we are getting better and yet in religion we stay mired in blindness despite our supposed on-going efforts to find "truth". Why is this? Does anyone feel a little pessimistic at our prospects of breakthrough when we have been slogging in spiritual mud (read: established religion) since before the Pharaohs?

3. How Jesus could have read the same OT as us and yet teach from it and refer to it as his basis in prophecy, while to us it seems horrifying and written by bigots and religious zealots is disturbing and puzzling to me. The OT paints God as a monster and similar to the jealous, vengeful, petty heartless mythic gods of the Greeks etc.

A thought: Did Jesus ever really endorse the OT or was that made up? Did he not see how starkly it contradicted his own message? When he commanded us to love our fellow men was he temporarily forgetting his own father's commands to commit genocide, kill rebellious children, cut off the hands of women who grabbed a man's gonads during a fight, burn witches, smash infants' heads and take terrified women as slaves? (The OT horrors go beyond these in case you are not sufficiently shocked.)

What seems to be true is: humanity is seeking truth and a deeper meaning and yet we live not alone but among billions of others, some of whom are trying to do the same thing, while others are clueless and baa-baaaing along like sheep while still others are raping, killing, maiming and robbing us. What a threatening circus we live in!!

Therefore, when I start analyzing the bible I see a deeply flawed document filled with inconsistencies which leaves me wondering what does it really contribute to my well being? Did all my years of churchifying, striving against "sin", analyzing, testifying, and Bible thumping help make me a better person? Heck no!! (It hasn't helped James "what..me sin?" Dobson, Ted "Al" Haggard, Jimmy "call girl" Swaggart or Ken "a-mayen" Copeland much either!!


All I know now is: Jesus remains my example of how to live, I didn't create myself, I have the capacity to love and that my kids are a wonderful blessing to me. After all the years I feel a peace I never have before..I do not have many answers but I feel I am on the right path. Anyone else identify with me???

Hey Dr. Guitar... in answer to some of your "fundamental questions"...

For me, the answer ultimately boils down to: They were wearing the empty backpack.

Good stuff DrGuitar!


sparrow - I would love to hear your views after you read the book this thread is about.

Did you know that the OT is filled with many God's but have been mistranslated?

How does the picture change when suddely we are faced with the great possiblility that there is not just GOD and the devil but many Gods in which one could serve?

This book has given me more questions instead of answers

ok backpack means their ability to love I guess..

but my questions had to do with a lot more than nutty mean puritans and other assorted psychopaths..

I don't think I'll read the book. (sorry, I know my posts have been a bit off topic...lol.)

Honestly? I just...
It sounds like confusion to me.
Maybe I'm wrong.

DrGuitar... I'm one of those who doesn't depend on the bible for my beliefs.
I just don't. So, I guess I'm not the person to answer your questions.

I just don't bother trying to reconcile the bible with what I believe God to be and with what I believe this life to be.

Yes. The bible has brought me to great truths... but was it the bible or was it God just happening to USE the bible because that is what I was searching in??

edited to add: I hope that didn't sound confusing. I believe there is great truth in the bible, of course! But I look for what I believe God to be (LOVE) and if what I am reading does not equal to love, then I step away from it. Go back to it later, in case I'm missing something....keep looking for love behind it, if ultimately I don't find love (God) behind it, then I'm walking AWAY from it. Until and unless God brings me back to it.

I don't necessarily believe the bible is this infallible thing.

Also, again.. this world is just a schoolyard.
I think too many people put too much stock in it.
"If there was a God... " or "If God was all powerful and all loving" then he wouldn't allow such and such. That's the wrong view, in my opinion. That's the wrong way of looking at it.
That is the view of someone who thinks this life is anything other than a schoolyard.
just my opinion, of course.

Im saying this, and yes I hear you, and according to you I am carnal and seeing the carnal in the bible???? Is that what you are meaning???

I am seeing the words for what they are. And no longer twist violent language into something good.

I want the heavenly and it is first pure..........not first violent then twisted into something masking as pure.

There is a group that knows this inside so have learned to spiritualize it all and that is how they live with the ugliness. God is good, if that is where you are He will meet you there. He will make the horror stories alive with meaning for you. He is the God of resurrection! The God of Life! He often takes that entire OT book and makes it alive with meaning, He resurrects the old into the new! That is how Good HE is!

I think those of us that spent and spend so much time spiritualizing it all are a threshold people. We havent fully let go of the old and havent fully entered into the new. And what a beautiful valuable thing it is too. Resurrecting something dead and giving it life is quite an accomplishment!

But some cant do that any longer. Some know that there is a Wisdom that is FIRST PURE.

ok look at the OT and look at this little nugget alongside it



Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

Oh God open our ears and our eyes to see the truth with NO mixture is my cry, we have been a people addicted to violence, envying, strife and confusion!!!!

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

There is the truth!


1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Jesus was telling them in no uncertain terms who their God was. It was not God the Father, they had NO fruit of God the Father. And they were blind leaders of the blind. The ot violent god is a blind leader of the blind. BUT, God is good, He can use anything to teach us His truth. Its amazing how folks can stretch horror stories into wisdom. But its not the best, not the highest because it is not FIRST PURE.

Im following the God in whom there is NO darkness. Im following the words that came out of Jesus mouth that are first PURE.

If any wisdom that comes to me is not First PURE then its second best, stale bread, old wine.

for


1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


There isnt a lot in the OT that is first pure and is described by the Life of Christ and the LOVE listed above but there is some. It has to be discerned. I guess for me Id rather just jump into waters that are first pure where ever I find them.

I love Jesus Christ, He is FIRST PURE! He IS the wisdom from above!

There are even some words in the nt attributed to him that I dont live on. I dont believe He said them. I believe that book is tampered with.

I use my God given spirit within to discern and I only want to ingest what is first pure, then peaceable and so forth.

and on to my personal witness for me

Coming into this new place I had two dreams leading me out of the old place of knowing into this new place of knowing

The first I was in a house and there were a people there that were a violent people, but the people of god, they loved God. The man held a sword, he was young, handsome and surrounded by others, mostly women. I had rented a room in their house and in that room were all these statues of angels. (The law is mediated by Angels) I stood in the room where they were sitting and I also held a sword but mine was pointed down to the ground while his was pointed differently. His was ready for war, mine was not, I was done with warring. I was wearing a transparent heavenly pale blue almost white dress that was so transparent but you could see thru me too apparently. lol And he told me to remove it at once! I told him no, and walked towards the front door. At that moment a beautiful chariot arrived and these men went in my old room got all the statues and stuff and packed it in a coffin to go bury them somewhere and my beautiful Grandmother stood there and I said to her, 'they left, how will I get home?' and she responded, 'We will get you home.' And I woke up.

The next one I was swimming in this incredibly beautiful sea, the water was a deep jeweled teal and it was so transparent and deep that you could stand on the shore and see the bottom perfectly that is how transparent it was. I was swimming deeply in it and Jesus was with me , he wasnt another, we were One swimming. And we were looking for treasure!

This is how God has always led me since I was a child. He confirms to me thru dreams often where I am and gives me wisdom.

I was coming out of the of an old consciousness that still used violence into a new consciousness.


--------

So I disagree that Im simply not able to see the spiritual in all the violence anymore and getting stuck on the carnal. When I see violent language, I simply see violent language. If you didnt mean that Byron, I apologize if I misunderstood. I have been told that by several of my forum friends, well meaning Im sure but I disagree with them. :)

What comes from the violent ot twisted into something beatuiful is not FIRST PURE, it is second best.

blessings

GodisLove

All I know now is: Jesus remains my example of how to live, I didn't create myself, I have the capacity to love and that my kids are a wonderful blessing to me. After all the years I feel a peace I never have before..I do not have many answers but I feel I am on the right path. Anyone else identify with me???

-----------

Im no longer into biblolotry either Dr!



GodisLove raises her hand! I do I do! lol

Raising my hand, too!!!

Thanks for sharing Sparrow – important perspectives!

Amen, Dr Guitar! Both of my hands are held high!

Dang, GodisLove! Best Sunday sermon, I’ve ever heard - You GO, Sis! Could not agree more – Love, Wisdom, Virtue are FIRST Pure! Definitely a keeper!

In His (First Pure) Love, John

TY John, that is how God has been preaching it to me haha

You know, I am just asking for grace, I want this knowing to penetrate all of the areas of my life. I truly want to BE a peacemaker!

I have lived on violence so long in many areas of my life. Entertainment, foods, books, religion, wow where has it not penetrated?

But I dont want to be like the muslim fundamentalists and cover the woman up in a tent so I dont have to admit I have lust either haha

I want all of the violence out of me.....out! Then I also want to let go of my facination with it in my outward life. But not because I cant face what might be inside but because its simply NO longer profitable for me. Nothing left inside to feed off of it if you will.

Help me Father! I want to be completely free of violence is my prayer!

I dont even know how it is possible to live in this world and be completely free of it but I know and believe it is possible so that is what Im asking, seeking and aiming for!

GodisLove

ohhhh wow do you know what God just said to me after writing that prayer out loud?

He said

"If you ask me for bread I will not give you a stone!"

heheh

He is so good, I believe Lord, help thou my unbelief!

Woo hoo! Your post just inspired me to go click on my "random bible verse"...
and looky here...

Romans 8:18
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Amen Sparrow!

*hugs*

I have so enjoyed seeing the old gang back and conversing - why does it take a discussion about the OT to bring us out?

I was thinking the same thing!!