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Hi all

I woke up early to see the election unfold and was moved by the speech he delivered and also the concession speech by John McCain.

There is a global excitement with what is happening in the USA and my faith in mankind has been renewed.

With all the spiritual warfare and prayer circles praying for a McCain victory, the time has come to reevaluate the role of religion in politics. Certainly there are issues that many may not agree with like pro-choice vs. pro-life but that alone is not the issue to choose change. I am both pro-choice and pro-life yet that extends beyond the mere birth of a baby when it seems those pro-lifers value system changes.

The radical right wingnuts - aka the ET crowd - are now fully challenged in their supposed faith. The polarisation of the country based on religious ideals nearly had us take a quantum leap backwards to the dark ages.

Now I know that some of you may be in fear of the unknown and may have preferred the status quo but we have arrived at a juncture that we could not continue on the same path. America in it's fundamentalism esp. the right wing version of Christianity in America had essentially made the USA an island in the global village. Many of us have already seen the light in terms of our faith in that we came to the realisation that the ET turn-or-burn hell-fire doctrines really did not hold true with the logic we have. I have always believed that faith and logic are not mutually exclusive and in our many discussions we have seen that we can debate these matters w/o deferring to a godunnit mentality.

Why I have shown so much interest in this election was primarily to try and understand how the average American thinks. Having given up trying to convince folk that the rapture and hellfire is a myth, I thought research in the secular sense may give me more understanding.

Everyone seems to be acknowledging the first president of color but I have - having lived through a transition from white to black rule - seen beyond the color and politics. Yes Obama does have some messianic qualities but that is not because he is an antichrist of sorts but he has demonstrated for me anyway, a steadfastness and diligence we expect from someone that claims to be Christian. The Republicans who claim to represent the 'christian' values have been exposed too many times as hypocrites and bigoted folk. It really made me wonder how these folk are not familiar with the parable of the Samaritan and also the adulteress woman while they spewed forth the hate rhetoric.

Obviously this is a broad brush but I think that through this entire process we have seen the worst and the best exposed in the people. Like God holding up a mirror and emphasizing the beam in the eye complex.

We have seen the economy bottom out (i Hope) and we need to evaluate where to from here. I sure hope that the hype of the election and the spirit in which the reaching out took place does not lose steam. This is the sort of ground game we need to reach those in need w/o bible punching them but to merely spread a little love and compassion.

This is overwhelming and I have so much to share in light of having lived through a transition. All I can say is, the sky will not fall and finally the civil war complex is defeated. Still a way to go but this is the threshold of change and not change in of itself.

Many folks faith will be tested now esp. those that were delusional that Obama was possibly that ebul, black, Muslim, terrorist, antichrist et al. This is the opportunity for us to share the real good news to ally fears that they may have. Invite your friends here to discuss.

It took someone like Nelson Mandela to unite whites and blacks here in SA, now you have your own version in Barrack Obama. We are all God's children and only once we can demonstrate unity in ourselves, only then will others sit up and take notice like those of other faiths.

I will share more as I feel led.

If you are a visitor, sign up and participate.

Blessings

i totally agree,a pastor friend was spitting as he was talking about obama.i listened in shock of what he was saying.i guess as we all transition to not judging our neighbour we have to go through the reality of where our hearts are truly at.

Have been wondering how long it might be before preachers holding religious doctrines as John Hagee, Pat Roberson and countless others, even like the doctrines preached by the past Reverend Jim Jones start creeping out of their camps with counter reactive speeches of doom and gloom with all hell fire damnation upon all those outside their camps? It appears all these religious doctrines preached so loud by these various religious camps are being exposed for what they are:
Empty powerless religious doctrines built on fear
or is it the work of mystery Babylon?

The voice of the American people have been heard in the world as all the Nations around the world watched our political campaigns from the beginning right up through
Mc Cains concession speech to the Obama victory speech that followed. What is even more we are going to be watched by the world now for the actions taken after all the campaign words and speeches when the New administration takes office, until then many here in the US and abroad are going to be watching the present Bush administration closely as they still have a little over two months left in power and a lot can happen in a short time, hold onto hope yes, however not a time to fall asleep in complacency.

Fire Walker

Some more thoughts.

Like I said earlier, the elections has revealed both the best and worst in people. I want to focus a bit more on the actual Presidency.

Because Barrack is non white (as if that should matter in the 21st century) he will be held to a much higher standard than any previous recent presidents. It would seem that Ronnie Raygun was the last one to set a standard of sorts but that again was 20 years ago when he left office and back then we did not have the internet. Bush riding on the coattails of Ronnie probably did not take into consideration the advancement of technology, instant news etc.

At Huffington Post I have encouraged the non-white folk not to place Barrack on a pedestal or parade him like a trophy in the civil rights. That is happening right now but it is par for the course for those that felt they have been oppressed.

In South Africa, we went from a white minority to a black majority and because of what had happened in the earlier liberation of certain African countries, whites had to literally flee for their lives leaving behind everything they had worked for. The whites moved south and continued moving south as the various states gained their majority independence. This unfortunately left many of these places with a brain-drain of experience leaving the new regeims without the necessary know how of government. Bear in mind, the systems the whites ruled with were merely adopted and the white fat cat became the black fat cat. This is a simplified version.

If one looks at the start of the African revolution that started in the 50's, Ghana being the first to gain independence from Britain in 1955 (?) I think, you see that as the whites left en masse, the countries essentially went backwards rapidly. Another phenomena was the double race migration south esp in southern Africa.

What happened was as they whites moved south, the borders to the north we sealed Berlin wall style. As the black gained their independence, these borders reopened resulting in a second influx of non whites from the north wherein the economies of the northern states had already failed.

Now in South Africa, that was as far south as we could go so it was a grin and bear it fifo situation with the border to Zimbabwe being more open. The net result was a conglomeration of citizens of folk from afar as Nigeria. Here the whites emigrated to the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Many have returned since.

Recently the local black folk have had xenophobic tendencies akin to genocide killings much further in north Africa. Fortunately this was nipped in the bud by the authorities.

Now this is in a nutshell the history of liberation here in Africa.

In the USA, you took your independence, over 200 years ago and racially, there are more whites than non-whites there. Back in the early 1900's you had exactly what we had in many African colonies.

South Africa's biggest sin was defining the practice of separation based on race called apartheid which is Afrikaans for separateness. Briefly, this system assigned folk to govern themselves within the broader SA white govt guidelines. Blacks were not allowed into restaurants, white toilets, white schools and were provided with SA govt built schools in most "black" cities. A dual education system was enacted so as to train the blacks to be fit for mine fodder on the Gold mines of the Witwatersrand (White waters rim) There were however some like Nelson Mandela that achieved a law degree in spite of these obstacles.

Because of the neo-nazi style government of the then regime, at times black were confined to townships with pass books and essentially marshal law that essentially disallowed blacks into "white" neighborhoods after 6pm unless they were stay in servants.

Without going into more detail, it probably sounds familiar to the USA history although their liberties came earlier albeit slow. Now guess who invented this racial divide system?

In the USA there was a march where the sanitary workers with signs "I am a Man"

In Africa, black servants were called "boys" and if female "girls", never mind that they were adults that could well be older than their white "bosses". In fact, just like the USA, they had to address you as Baas which is Afrikaans for Boss. Sound familiar?

Now we had servants quarters which were called "boys" quarters and were built as outside rooms usually attached at the back of the garage for your car.

In Australia, I am sure they had similar situations where the Aborigines only recently have achieved equality in citizenship.

What do all these 3 countries have in common?

BRITAIN.

Aaah.

We always joke about the Australians being a convict colony and if one examines the origins of Africa, particularly South Africa, Australia and the US, the forefathers all were the dregs of society from Europe and in certain cases criminals who had the option of jail or forced emigration. Some folk were kicked out for fishing in some Lord's private fishing pond - a jailable offense. Back then jail was a slow death sentence.

So how far have we come?

Well South Africa, got rid of slavery long before the USA but most were still live in slaves getting a pittance of a salary and housing and food. In America, you nearly wiped out the indigenous folk - your "red" Indians.

And we whites are proud of our legacy???????

Yup sure are - ya betcha!

As the new aristocracy had only "niggers" for servants, like the old aristocracy, they raped their white slaves but here in the outback, they did it to folk of color. In SA these biracial folk were referred to as coloreds and the blacks as kaffirs (ironically kaffir being the name given to an unbeliever or Muslim)

Apologies for the racist words.

You guys fought a war to end slavery. Blacks here fought alongside the Boers to kick the Brits out but we kept their aristocracy class distinctions. The newly "upper" class now made them colored folk the low class.

Now as whites, many of us cannot imagine how it felt for the black folk, many know the past was wrong and we have developed a "white" complex yet the racial roots are still there. Imagine how shocked Barracks grandmother was that her daughter was spoiled by a black man? Apparently he writes about it in one of his books.

This racial crap actually is defended from the bible where:

Gen 9:25 he said, "A curse on Canaan! He will be a slave to his brothers.

There is also a verse of water bearers.

When I was small, I played with black kids but as I grew older, the line in the sand was drawn and taught to me by my parents. In the church they were in, in annual conventions, the colored folk had to sit separate from the white folk.

Now just for a moment, flip the situation. Let us say you were denied rights, were treated as 2nd class citizens, how would you feel?

Now there are radicals in the black liberation movement yet most are unusually forgiving. Yet we are still divided by race. In the USA, I suspect that many blacks have the right to stay in traditionally white areas but from what I see on TeeVee, the practice of apartheid is still alive and well.

White supremacy is an oxymoron. Most folk that are educated do not go out and buy guns in fear of a "black" uprising.

In the USA, you are not going from a minority to a majority rule, you have a minority person based on race, who just happens to have graduated with a Doctorate in law, taught constitutional law and reached back to his own to help them also aspire to better things. The balance of color in the Dem ticket, senate and representatives is mostly white, so where is the fear? Oh yes it is because they are too liberal.

Well in SA, the ANC were closely aligned with the SA communist party yet we have not gone communist. We are more socialist with programs of providing cheap housing to the poor, have enforced AA and black economic empowerment to try and balance the wrongs of the past, schools are fully integrated and even private schools cannot decline people of color.

Now if a white president could not close the racial divide apart from token appointments like Colin Powell and Condi Rice who came across "white enough" to be acceptable, it stands to reason that a black man may do some things different.

I am sure some wingnuts had visions of appointments of Jesse Jackson who is considered not moderate and folk like Wright etc. I really do not think that Barrack is that type of person mainly because he does not seem to have the baggage of the struggle of the past 40 years and the folk in Hawaii are not lilly white either.

Although the election was not about race officially, for many it was. The last two bastions of white rule is the UK and the USA in tat order. The other day I watched the PM's questions parliamentary session on sky news, while they all applauded the transition of the first black person in the USA and the democracy, all them folk were lilly white. There may be a few folk of color but nowhere near as many as in USA politics.

And here we are, the folk who have learned the lesson, teaching the siblings of our forefathers in the counties of origin. Like I said earlier, we all have a long ways to go.

What is good about this, because Barrack will be held to a higher standard, and if (I am sure) he passes the "test", the bar for public office will have been raised so high that no dumbass will have a hope in hell of running for office again.

In many ways, the USA is ahead of South Africa, but we are 14 years into a fully integrated society. Sadly many of out non white folk are not well educated but in time that will change. It will take another 4 generations at least.

Racism needs to be unlearned just as it is learned, the sooner the folk start, the better. The greatest irony of all is that religious folk tend to be the most racist, thank the Old Testament for that plus the Judeo-Christian teachings for that.

More later.

Blessings

Wow Seeker, I am totally feeling you on everything that you are saying. God has been changing my thoughts a lot these past few days. I asked Him for forgiveness for my harsh criticism, and my feelings about Bush and the government lately. That attitude brought about a great mistrust of ANY politician, and that attitude almost made me not want to vote. I want our troops home so that is why I got up. I was not really believing that we could have a President that would be non-white, it was just unreal. It still feels unreal.

I agree that this will bringout the best and worst in people. The worst that I have heard is a woman whose friend ended their friendship because of our new President. My husband told me that heard of some black citizens slapping white police officers. I read in a blog written by a black man on how he overheard two black men saying how they were going to tell their boss to kiss their a**. I am so ready to move forward in unity, and begin to shed off layer by layer the actions, thoughts, and the speech that will keep division alive in our country. In the black community there are NO MORE EXCUSES, no more wounds. We will get beat up by racism, but we can move beyond it and not be victimized no more by racism. You are right, we still have a long way to go and boasting and having a 'we won so take that' attitude will only hinder us on the road to healing and change.

Seeing the sea of people in Chicago, seeing the celebrations in Kenya, Italy, I mean, wow! I feel so moved and I feel renewed with hope that we can work together in unity in this world. We can't let that die people!

Once the euphoria of "victory" passes, esp. for non whites, things will return to normal. The reactionary reactions of the right wingnuts will pass too. Pent up feelings of the blacks need a release and so too the fears of the whites. This is new territory for both sides.

In SA there are still folks that fear once Mandela dies, that black radicals will engage in a race war against the whites, there are black elements like this but are way in the minority. Many blacks are now rejecting the ANC ruling party as they now see through their incompetence in appointing cadres and really have replace the white old boys club with a black one, this will happen in the USA too if Obama does not at least try and at minimum introduce a transparent government.

When folk see the sky did not fall, life will return to normal. The hope I have with the USA is that the government will be for the people by the people and leaders, told what their constituents want on issues and the leaders forced to explain why certain things may not happen as quickly as hoped. The reality is now that Obama is the president, he does not have much in the state coffers to work with. Wealth will first need to be created before it can be "distributed." While he may reduce tax to the middle class, he will need money to do the stuff he wants, I am guessing an increase in VAT as that is a way everyone pays a "flat" rate. You guys also have state tax which we do not have but someone must fund what needs to be done and it is up to government to enact/manage but if no one pays nothing will happen.

The reality is that taxes will likely go up rather than come down. This is because of the recent economic developments/failures. Finding ways to put the unemployed to work albeit mundane tasks, will offset the so called welfare espoused. Encouraging entrepreneurs will help create new jobs but there needs to be more blue collar vs white collar jobs.

Another thing that will need to happen is the USA dollar needs to be devalued so that you can compete internationally or a system of trade that is fair and balanced. The USA can only really export war and weapons of war, aircraft (Boeing) but that's about it. Global economics is complex and the bush admin did not understand it.

It is going to take time but at least the is now hope world wide. Prior to the win of Obama there was only fear and despair.

Hi again Seeker Thanks for your explanation on the taxes and economy. That is in the news everyday, but honestly me and ANYTHING number related just don't work out lol. I just always know that taxes go up and down. I also want to say that I hope as well that we can have a government that is for the people and by the people. I still am wary of politics, and I feel it just leads to corruption, lies, and greed. There are people in the government that do not succum to that though, and I hope that years from now our new President elect won't be featured on some special news report showing a paper trail of corruption and lies while he was in office. I don't know if you checked out the videos on Dawn's thread The End of America. It was shocking for me to see that things have gottten that bad since Bush has been in office. It is really a shame and it makes me angry when politicians go that route.

The Sarah Palin Issue.

On the Huffington Post and on the major news networks, SP has been very prominent this last week.

The one thing that many are posting against is her fundamentalism and this by believers and believers alike. This got me thinking is that which they fear christianity or is it the fundamental side of it where these folk think a theocracy is the way to go?

I would say the fear is of the latter. Most have no problem with faith so long as it is kept out of politics, and with Dubya's last 8 years of incompetence, christianity is now equated to stupidity. It is also seen that the liberals are all unbelievers and hence there is the great divide. In the same breath, I do not believe all republicans are believers either.

The folk always cry persecution and one guy developed this graphic.

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Now we hear certain churches condemning parishioners that voted for Obama and say that taking communion you run the risk of damnation and others saying other things.

This to me will drive many away from the church and will marginalize christians as time goes by. What baffles me is how blind some folk are as BO exuded more compassion and tolerance than the vitriol espoused by the GOP rallies, a pastor praying before a McCain rally challenging God to prove himself over those praying for an Obama win, much spiritual warfare and prayer circles that amounted to nothing.

Which god won?

The bottom line is that many have this image of a Caucasian Jesus and some black folk have icons of a black Jesus. Will the real Jesus please stand up.

Well, IMO both sides are wrong as Jesus, whatever he was, was not race conscious but did come to the Jews first, yet found more faith in the gentiles.

The teachings of Jesus goes beyond cultures and color as it resonates with all. I really think the mainstream have deviated so far that they can no longer identify with the real Jesus, this is where I believe that "I know you nots" come from as many have professed to represent Him but they don't.

This is either going to be an exciting or disappointing four years.

Bernie,

That is an interesting comment Bernie, "I would say the fear is of the latter. Most have no problem with faith so long as it is kept out of politics, and with Dubya's last 8 years of incompetence, Christianity is now equated to stupidity. It is also seen that the liberals are all unbelievers and hence there is the great divide. In the same breath, I do not believe all republicans are believers either."

Christianity in the form that it is presented "churches style" is without a doubt a synonym for extreme stupidity, indeed!!! Can you imagine a rational mind trying to deal with an - immortal soul, a hell fire, an open theistic god that can't foretell the future because of human freewill, a three in one god, a preexistent Messiah, finally a god without a plan and a Pope that believes in evolution! To name only a few.

John

Hi Johnny

Yeah it is weird how things have transpired for me the last few months. I decided to get involved on non faith boards and came across the Huffington post with the election. Being a liberal slanted site, I was nevertheless dismayed to see the "stupid" in that camp too, however the Christians there did not postulate their beliefs. There is another site Rapture Ready and man that is stupid compounded. Most seem uneducated or uniformed and now with the BO win, all of a sudden these conspiracy theories come out and end of world predictions while the majority are go go ga ga for Sarah Palin to have a shot in 2012 while entertaining the idea the end of the world may still happen this year, December 7th I think.

These folk are a left behind cult following and have little biblical knowledge but are full of the theories of the "end times" which BTW change daily.

What did I learn from this? Nothing really, it just confirmed that many are uninformed and that is saying it kindly. I do not know the age of these folk so it is hard to pin it down to a demographic. the one thing that did stand out was the black folk did come across more tolerant than white folk.

The liberal non believers do tend to have a more informed view of the world on many subjects. The question I still ask is, what is the standard of education in the USA? It sure comes across as low and that is surprising - again this is all based on observations of what I read on the net. If this is so, then that is a sad state of affairs as the level of education should increase as knowledge increases. Here in SA we have also seen a decline in standards and guess why, we import American programes and then tailor them to SA. The standards of teachers has also dwindled and here folk can become teachers w/o a diploma.

By the sounds of it, BO has this as a key issue to be addressed in his presidency so I do not think my observations are too far off.

There also seems to be some weird belief that these bailouts are going to fix the economy and to be honest I do not see it that way. I think a new economy is needed based around hands on skills - there are far too many "graduates" pushing paper and being overpaid. Back when I started my training, clerical staff were minimal and earned much less than artisans, nowadays in spite of computerized systems, there are far too many in these soft jobs. Has the world entered into a virtual world? Probably as that does not generate wealth for many only a few. Even India is in this game now.

I think if I still had debt I would be freaked out. I do wish the Fed here will drop interest rates as no one is borrowing to do home improvements and that affects folk like me.

I wonder what will happen with oil? It does seem to have come down radically and even with the reduction in production, it has not upped the price. One has to wonder what drove the price so high in the first place? The oil bit has a direct net effect on our economy. In the USA they say the cost of living has dropped significantly and I only hope that it will happen here too.

I predict a total collapse of the banking system, it sure will not take much for that to happen. The oligarch driven inflation has backfired on them. When the value of property falls, usually a good investment, then there is a problem. I bought my 1st house in 1989 for $4430 and sold last year for $78000 not bad for 18 years but the profit did not last long.

If salaries are going to decrease then prices will need to follow suit or else folk will not buy.

The biggest mystery of all is where does all these Stock Exchange trillions go they lose on a daily basis? Was it even real to begin with?

Hey Bernie,

You make some good observations. Its interesting seeing everything unfold now and I just have to be thankful that I had a bit of foreknowledge so that these changes aren't overwhelming to me (although its not fun seeing it happen). I do know that many of those I tried to warn are starting to come around. I talked to two friends today - one in a very bad mood due to the economy and the other looking for a head wound that gets miraculously healed I was talking to the latter about the Bible and being careful not to follow "teachers" (prophecy) without checking it out herself (i.e., open up your Bible). Then I just briefly mentioned the word "hell" and its real meaning and I couldn't believe how fast she wanted off the phone. It still amazes me how agitated people get when you hint around that God might not be intending to torture people in a place called hell for all eternity. I myself was overwhelmed with the possibility and the more I studied, the more God opened my eyes, the more I experienced His love.

You talk about America and I have to admit that much you say is true. Our education system is a joke and w/o parents making sure their kids "do the work", so many kids leave high school with a diploma that means nothing. And although I don't understand everything that precipitated the Great Depression, I can see that this country is in sh*t poor shape now compared to back then. We won't weather it as well.

Sometimes I wish I was still ignorant of everything that's going on...living in a state of denial, but I do find that with the knowledge does come some power as far as making good decisions -- and more importantly, my faith is made stronger by knowing that HE really is orchestrating from above and I can trust that He is making perfect decisions.

May we all weather this time and I know that when the morning comes, joy will prevail.

Blessings to all!
Love,
Dawn