I have had discussions on other boards. This is a transcript of a discussion I had with a man named "Floyd", not to be confused with the Floyd who frequents this board.
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Craig's Reply:
Thanks brother Floyd, I appreciate all the work you made to give me your position, I respect where you are coming from, let me give you my reply in love and grace it is intended.
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Quote:
Floyd says, "The righteousness of God, conceived in ethical terms, carries with it the theological cargo of consequences for actions done in this life."
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I agree. This is far more stretching of subject and deals with many propositions, presuppositions and as a result each of these holds with it the theological cargo of consequences for actions done in this life. It is this cargo, which I want to discuss with you, or anyone today.
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Quote:
Floyd says, " To allow death to annihilate the existence of sinners and so release them from these consequences would be to grant death a power over God's moral judgment. Thus, punishment of the wicked after death was a logical extension of the belief that the rightous would not be forgotten by a holy and just God. The teaching of Jesus and the early Christian community thayt sin had consequences extending through physical death and warranting punishment and judgment in the life to come rested upon a doctrine of God that was consistent with Israel's knowledge of Yahweh."
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The presupposition of consequence first needs to be addressed. In human terms, the most severe of punishments, is capital punishment, it is done to annihilate the existence of a criminal and is the full price of the consequence of their life of crime. Therefore, the logic which presupposes the assumption that the sinner does not get their just judgment through annihilation, is a faulty one and presupposes that God did not create death to serve a purpose in which He created it. I do not even believe annihilationism.
The teaching of Jesus did speak of consequences that come far beyond death. These consequences were not eternal torments, but by Jesus's own words eternal punishment. The word eternal punishment, as explained earlier, is a corrective punishment of an indeterminate duration. The fact Jesus used the word Kolasis (corrective punishment) versus torment , speaks volumes.
William Barclay states in his book, Layman's theology, "The punishment which the unfaithful shall receive are such as befits God to give and inflict. Beyond that we cannot go. Simply to take the word AIONIOS, when it refers blessings and punishment, to mean lasting forever is to oversimplify and indeed misunderstand the word altogether.
"It means that which the faithful will receive and that which the unfaithful will suffer is that which it befits God's nature and character to bestow and inflict - beyond that we who are men cannot go, except to REMEMBER that that nature and character is holy love."
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Quote:
Floyd say, "Some have mistakenly assumed that it is the Old Testament which pictures nagative consequences after death, while the New Testament is positive and more "human." Acutally, the reverse is true. It is the New Testament which fills out the contours of the vague Old Testament teaching about Sheol and populates it with real, substantive human beings. Here we read of Dives, who in the realm of the dead is in "anguish in this flame" (Luke 16:24). It is in the New Testament that we first hear of people being cast into outer darkness where they will "weep and gnash their teeth" (Matthew 22:13). It is also in the New Testament where we first read of the place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48). It is here tha we read the terrible description of Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."
It is against this backdrop that we see Jesus himself expressing a strong warning against breaking the divine law and entering hell (Matthew 5:29; 18:9). It is God who is to be feared, and not man, becaue He has the power to "cast into hell" (Luke 12:5). In coming under God's judgment in His death, Jesus himself is plae in the condition of the sinner who is under the curse of the law."
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Floyd, there is so much misinformation in this paragraph, that I cannot even start to explain. In line with the first refute, a parable cannot be used to establish a doctrine belief with accuracy since Jesus specifically used it so people would not understand or see. Therefore the 'colourful' language in which things described are not guaranteed to be a physical reality, but an abstract concept with elements of truth. In summation of the parable's, it is always good to listen to God for your guidance and not follow the ways of men and the wickedness in their heart because that path leads to destruction.
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Floyd says, "On the basis of Christ's death for sinners, the apostle Paul argued that death, which spread to all people through the sin of Adam, has now bee overcome through the death of the one man Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12, 15,16).
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The word, "salvation", is a tricky word. It refers to many things in Scripture. To say it plainly, those who believe universal salvation, do not believe those who are unfaithful are saved destruction. In fact, those who remain unfaithful will suffer loss. We all reap what we sow, God cannot be mocked.
Paul did not argue that Christ's death was specifically appropriated through individual repentance and faith in Christ. Much of what is used by those who believe in conditional salvation, is also used by those who believe in universal salvation, the propositions and foundational understanding is different. Romans is a book which is difficult to use one who believes in a conditional salvation because as many 'quotes' of penalty or punishment for the unbeliever, is followed by as many 'quotes' of hope and of mercy over judgment, mercy because of disobedience, salvation even to those who by nature were vessels fit for destruction.
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Floyd says, "Christ saving death contains a universal offer of salvation which must be appropriated trhough individual repentance and faith in Christ."
"We must be careful not to set up our own meager conceptions of love and justice as standards for God or to manipulate His word to suit our desires."
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We must be careful not to manipulate His word to suit our desires. Though who desires their enemy to be eternally tormented but the one who has unforgiveness in his heart. This concept contradicts the Son's own words in which we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, and the prayers of a righteous man is powerful, it will not come back void and failed. A man who hates his brother is a murderer, and knows not God.
Who's desire is it for love to prevail, for love never to fail, for love to never give up, for love never hold a record of wrongs done against it, but God Himself who is Love.
If by the confession of the mouth we are saved, as Romans 10 says, then every man will eventually find that salvation after a duration of corrective punishment which lasts until one is properly corrected because in Romans 14. every tongue will confess. He desires none to perish, and that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father. Thus satisfying the presupposed condition of individual repentance and faith in Christ, even for those who are under the earth.
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Floyd says,
"We may revolt at the crude imagery with which hell is so often pictured by the theology of other days, but we cannot dismiss the urgency the biblical message places on individual decision."
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A Christian Universalist does not disregard the urgency of the truth being preached because there is destruction and consequences of a person's choices. Some can be saved the fire in which they headed if they repent. There is no dismissing the urgency of the biblical message, only a misunderstanding which continues to be falsely perpetrated in how long the duration lasts of that punishment and what the punishment actually serves.
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Floyd says,
"The fact that God offeres salvation in Christ to all people does not mean that this offer will be universally accepted. Scripture sets froth both God's sovereign love and human responsibility. The message of the gospel is not "God so loved the world that anybody, whether or not he or she believes, will have eternal life." the dark thought of perishing is present weven when God's love is described as embracing the world."
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There is again a presupposition which is being refuted here, which is not believed by Christian Universalists. Therefore, it is difficult disagree without making an issue about what Christian Universalists believe, since none claim "God so loved the world that anybody, whether or not he or she believes, will have eternal life." This is a fallacy, and does not bode well for the one who continues to attribute this false statement to those who do not believe it.
Another presupposition is to confuse eternal life with salvation. They are similar but distinctively different concepts not to mention similar but distinctively different from the concept of immortality.
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Quote:
Floyd says,
"It is Christ Himself who stated "it is better to enter the kingdom of God with of the one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48).
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Parable, and as much as I need to repeat it, it cannot be used to establish a doctrine it can only be used to establish an element of truth. There is an explanation which is not out of context or far fetched concerning why Jesus quoted Isaiah. I can speak of this later, in the mean time, just know that this is not ignored.
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Floyd says,
"And when he declares, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46). he used the same word, ainios (eternal), to describe both damnation and blessedness. This if the one is not eternal, neither is the other. In the light of this clear teaching of the Lord Himself, we cannot accept the view that all human beings will eventually be saved. "
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This is called the Augustine Fallacy among theologians and linguistic scholars.
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Here is Augustine's own words:
"Then what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal!' If both destinies are "eternal," then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative,--on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end." Augustine, City of God, 21:23 (A.D. 426).
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On the surface such bold conclusion does seem completely logically and sense, though it is actually a fallacy. The comparison of adjectives, does not make the adjectives equal. An adjective describes what is already intrinsic to the noun it is describing. It is very difficult for people to get this through their minds.
The word circular is the adjective form of circle in the same way the word aionios is the adjective form of aion. A bike wheel is circular, so is the earth, even the solar system, and our galaxy. This means that each individual noun, possesses a quality of a circle, it does not mean they are the same size nor does it mean they are the same shape.
In the same way, aionios is not a equal duration, it means the noun it describes possesses a duration and whether that duration is infinite or limited is not found in the word aionios, since an age itself can be perpetual or limited as well. The only word which means infinite and perpetual in Greek is "AIDIOS" For more on this fallacy, see my previous posts:
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Quote:
Floyd says.
"This teaching of Christ about hell is also reflected in the Book of Revelation, which describes the wicked as being "tormented with fire and brimstone... for ever and ever" (14:10-11)."
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The Book of Revelation is another parable of Jesus Christ, because John says it is Jesus who is speaking and thus like all other parables, they all contain an element of truth but will be most likely misunderstood because seeing they will not see and hearing they will not hear or understand. It just cannot be used for proof or substance. Therefore the words are used to convey an urgency, but do not itself represent a physical or literal meaning.
Even if that was so, the word forever and ever, is an English/Latin figure of speech and if read backwards into the Greek usage is an anchronostic semantic fallacy. That is, in the Greek actually says it lasts for age and an age and did not have the figure of speech meaning of infinite duration but an age and an age meant it will last a couple ages. The word age is ambiguous, and in and of itself cannot be used to measure a duration objectively. The age of a fruitfly is 24 hours, the age of a human is 75 years, the age of the earth is 3.5 billion years (give or take old or young earth, then it is only 6000 years old).
There is far more to discuss, and many presuppositions which need to be addressed.
